Rolanda:         Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our webinar on "The New Statutory Sick Pay Scheme & The Implications for Absence Management". I'm Rolanda from the L&D team at Legal-Island and I'm joined by Caroline Reidy from The HR Suite who's looking as glamorous as ever.

Caroline:         Thank you.

Rolanda:         So, for all of you who are regulars to our webinars, you'll know that Caroline Reidy is a past member of the Low Pay Commission. She's also an adjudicator in the Workplace Relations Commission. She has completed a Master's in Human Resources at the University of Limerick. She is CIPD-accredited as well as being a trained mediator. 

                        She has worked across various areas of HR for over 20 years, including in the Kerry Group and in the retail and hospitality sector where she was the Operations and HR Director of the Garvey Group prior to setting up The HR Suite in 2009. I'm sure you can't believe that was 2009 you set up The HR Suite.

Caroline:         Flies.

Rolanda:         She speaks widely and writes lots of articles for Legal-Island on papers and thought leadership in relation to the future landscape of HR and the challenges and opportunities that presents for both employers and employees. 

                        As I said, in this month's webinar we're going to look at the new statutory sick pay proposals and the implications for managing that. 

                        Caroline is a regular speaker of the Legal-Island Annual Review for Employment Law, which this year, as you can see, is going to be held on 24 and 25 November. It will be held again online. Obviously, we don't really know what's going to be happening in November, so we're just going online again this year and it's brilliant. Caroline is going to be speaking on the difference between bullying and management, really, and what's bullying and what's management. I'm really looking forward to that session I have to say, Caroline.

                        Just before I hand over to Caroline, we have a couple of poll questions that we want to check just to get a bit of a feel for what the situation is with regard to sick pay in organisations at the minute. 

                        So the first question then is, "Does your organisation provide a company sick pay scheme at the moment?" So just yes or no. If you want to go ahead and vote, just click. Those responses are coming in. Maybe just close that one there, Katie. So 60% of organisations provide a company sick pay scheme at the minute and 40% don't. That's interesting. 

                        And then just next question, "Where you do provide a company sick pay scheme, can you just give us an idea roughly of how many sick days that that provides per year?" Naught to five days, or kind of one week roughly. You can just go ahead and pick the option.

                        I can see the votes coming in for that one. Looking like a lot of employers are doing 20-plus paid sick days a year, which is really interesting. Quite generous. Just give that another five seconds or so then. Okay. And the results are . . . So as you can see there, 45% of employers would pay 20-plus paid sick days per year, or I suppose that's four weeks roughly. And then the balance between the rest. Also, a lot in and the naught to five, so that's really interesting. Thanks for that. 

                        And then the very last question then. One of the requirements in the new scheme is that employees will have to provide medical certification. So do you require that from your employees where you're making a payment to them? If you could go ahead and do that. Results are coming in for that and it's looking like the majority of employers do require medical certification, which is interesting. We'll maybe just close that one there, Katie, as well. Okay. So 92%, very interesting, require some sort of medical certification from employees for paid sick leave. 

                        Would that be your experience, Caroline?

Caroline:         Yeah, it would, Rolanda. And I think that a lot of people have put a lot of work into the boundaries and the parameters and the guidelines in a sick pay policy and complementing their absence policy because a lot of ambiguity occurs in relation to the policies otherwise. 

                        So I think it's really positive to see that in terms of the fact that people are giving, obviously, so many days sick pay, which is really positive, and also have processes around it. Everything is fine when everything is fine. It's when there's an issue that these things are really important. And I think this is a very good starting point for our session this morning.

Rolanda:         Excellent. Thank you very much for the polls there, Katie. You can close that now. Caroline, so over to you then if you want to take us through these, what the proposals are and what you feel the implications then are for them.

Caroline:         Okay. Super. Good morning, everybody. Delighted to see so many of you with us this morning. And huge thanks to Rolanda for organising the event. 

                        We are getting a huge amount of new legislation, both legislation and statutory codes, in the last 18 months and this is another additional for our HR practitioners to start to navigate as it's coming in at the beginning of 2022. We are awaiting obviously more clarification, but we have a lot of information so far to help us review our current absence and sick pay policies. For me, it's very important that we review and assess both. 

                        And in the backdrop of COVID, many of you will have reviewed them in line with the COVID requirement in relation to sick leave, etc., and I think this is a good opportune time to reassess them again in line with this new introduction of a statutory sick pay scheme.

                        So the first thing to say is that, ultimately, there is a plan for the next four years and it's going to be phased in. I suppose this got most of the spotlight during COVID when a number of employees were not notifying their employer that they had potential symptoms of COVID for fear of not getting paid when they weren't at work because they weren't aware of the COVID sick pay scheme that was in place from a government perspective. And that shone a big spotlight in relation to the fact that we should have a better management around sick leave in Ireland, and ultimately this is where this legislation got fast-tracked. 

                        So the beginning of 2022 is the first starting point and people will have an entitlement of three days at that stage. In 2023, that will increase to five days. In 2024, it will increase to 7 days, and in 2025 that will increase to 10 days. 

                        And for employees to be entitled to sick leave under this new scheme they must have six months' continuous service with their current employer. And for many, that will coincide with them passing their probationary period. 

                        I think for a lot of organisations that we're consulting with now, that's what they're thinking in terms of how would they manage that in terms of absence management, etc. And that's always been a challenge in relation to somebody going out on sick leave within that first year of employment and how you navigate that, because people get sick at any stage. Again, how you manage it and the importance of pausing the probationary period should somebody be absent during that probationary period. 

                        Again, we've seen a lot of recent case law in relation to probation, and it's something that has come up a lot for us in the last 12 months as a result of the very significant O'Donovan case. So, again, something just to be mindful of here also.

                        The employees, as you rightly mentioned, Rolanda, will be required to produce a sick cert from their GP on the first day of absence to claim this benefit. And that's an interesting development because, for a lot of employees, they may say, "Well, the fact that I'm unwell", but it may not necessitate them to go to their GP and they may not want to pay the GP fees to avail of this benefit. And that's something I think we need to ensure that is incorporated into the policy if it is a case that already your sick certs are maybe not as clearable. 

                        Based on that poll, it looks like everybody has a very positive requirement in relation to sick certification. I think we have to question, though, is it practical to ask people for that sick cert on the first day of absence? And again, I think we need to assess and think about that. But if they want to claim this benefit, that has to be built into it. 

                        So, again, you as an employer, these are the statutory obligations that we envisage in line with the policy. Then, obviously, you're going to transpose it into your own policy culturally to see what you feel is more suitable.

                        The payment is the next piece that I was going to address. The sick pay will be paid by the employer at a rate of 70% of the employee's wage, up to a maximum of €110 per day. And again, for many of our organisations, they are currently looking at the fact that they pay a full employee's wage. So, again, for the organisations that have that in place, they're maintaining that and it's something that they're, I suppose, assessing in line with their current sick pay scheme. Again, it's important that we do that review at this stage. 

                        So there are a few key elements that we need to consider if you don't have an absence policy and if you don't have a sick pay policy in place. The implications around that absence management piece are, "Are you going to require that cert from day one to qualify for the payment?" And even if you have a sick pay scheme at the moment that doesn't require certification from day one, ultimately, this legislation that will be coming in will require it. That is what we're expecting at this stage. So, again, that gives you an opportunity to revisit your current policy should you so wish. 

                        For some of my clients, they don't see this as something that they're going to implement. For others, they're going to reassess the current scheme they have in place to incorporate these new obligations into them. 

                        And for some, as well, there's been a big discussion and debate around can you say, "Well, we can request it if we feel that your absence has become more sporadic, that we want a cert from day one on occasion"? 

                        So, again, that's something that we're seeing a lot more common in absence management policies, and I think that this statutory obligation around the sick pay is going to give you potentially that opportunity.

                        I suppose the other element to this is that we expect that there will be a greater focus around that element of how we manage absence in the organisation at the moment. 

                        Organisations will be familiar that already people accrue public holidays for the first 26 weeks unless it's an occupational health injury for the first 52. And also people accrue holidays for the first 15 months of absence. And now there's this addition in relation to minimum sick costs associated with it. 

                        So for many organisations, they are now planning, "What are the parameters around how we manage absence better within our organisations?" and already have started that consultation process with employees and unions in relation to drafting that absence policy so that when we get the finer detail of this legislation, we'll have clarity in relation to what that looks like.

                        We're also expecting that because of the fact that the hybrid and the remote working model has obviously taken huge hold of many organisations, there's now a big discussion around the fact that if somebody says they're working from home and, "I don't feel well today", what is the requirement from their perspective in relation to being unwell in managing that remote setting? 

                        For many, they're saying, "Well, look, I didn't feel great, but I still continued to work today". So, for many organisations, they're adjusting and updating their policies to reflect, "If you're working from home, this is the reporting structure. This is still the notification process. This is what we need in terms of absence management". 

                        Without doubt, in this new world of work where remote and hybrid is in place, people are taking a lot more self-responsibility to self-manage themselves, which brings huge advantages, but also huge challenges. So I think that's something that we need to look at and we need to revisit.

                        We got a very interesting question in, in advance of today's webinar, which I think would be helpful to touch on, which was looking at the whole area of "What's the difference between an absence for going to an appointment?" So whether they're going to a doctor's appointment or they're going to another type of appointment, what does that mean in terms of do we need to make changes now so that, for example, if somebody is absent, what does that look like? 

                        So I think that's a very interesting approach and, again, something that we need to make sure we're clear that if you're changing somebody's inherent custom and practice that they've had, or their core terms, which sick pay and that whole piece is obviously integral to their benefits, we need to make sure we do that with consultation. 

                        And we've seen recent case law from the Workplace Relations Commission and, indeed, the Labour Court reiterating that importance that you can't make unilateral changes. So I think it's really important that we revisit that.

                        Some key headings and some key considerations that I think would be useful for you to consider as you're navigating your absence and sick pay policy are to look at, "What do we expect from an employee if they're out sick?" So what do they do in terms of how to contact the organisation? Are text messages or calls from relatives acceptable, or is there a specific need to talk to a specific individual? And if so, who is that? 

                        We had a lot of concerns and employee grievances during the last 18 months of COVID where there were very significant breaches of data when somebody rang in sick and reported to somebody that they were absent due to having symptoms of COVID. 

                        And one of the key areas around this is being really clear on when people report whatever illness or reason that they're absent, the importance of the confidentiality around that, and, again, reminding all of our line managers. 

                        Obviously, HR will be very familiar with the fact that anything to do with somebody's reason for absence, whether that be a personal reason or a medical reason, it fits into the category of personal sensitive data, which requires an additional layer of making sure it's kept safe and secure and confidential. And as I say, I think we've learned a lot from COVID in relation to that. But again, I think a really useful time to be reassessing that. 

                        Also, being aware the fact that the employee doesn't need to give us the detail of their absence. So, again, what do we require from the employee in terms of why they're not available and why they can't work? And again, being clear in relation to that information and what our expectation of is in relation to that. 

                        The next key area I would address in that policy is what is your decision in relation to medical certification? For some organisations, as I mentioned, while people are on probation, they're looking for certification, and then after probation, many organisations currently have it after three days. But again, you now have that opportunity to revisit that in line with what's coming down the tracks. 

                        We're also aware of the fact that people have that opportunity to claim for illness benefit. Currently, there's the COVID additional benefit as well. What does your policy say in relation to that? So do you pay the balance of that? Is the employee obliged to make that claim? And do they pay the money directly to the company and your pay them their normal wages? Again, a really important area that is clear so that there's no ambiguity. 

                        I think that's going to be one that organisations now are, again, using this opportunity to get clarity in relation to that. For many organisations, the employee didn't process that payment and they were chasing employees in relation to it. So again, that clarity, I think, will be really important.

                        The next area as we move into people being out on sick leave for longer periods of time than what this statutory sick pay is going to cover, so anything more than those 10 initial days, I think it's really important that we have consistent approach in terms of how we engage with people when they're out for longer than that period of time and ensuring that we have a clause that requires the employees to facilitate us to engage with them. 

                        What you find is that for some employees who are absent from work, they may be absent because their performance is being questioned. They may be absent because they're genuinely ill, etc. There are so many reasons for absence that it's important that we're consistent with our approach. 

                        And for me, I think it's really important that we engage with the employee while they're absent and make sure that they still appreciate the fact that we value them as a team member and we want to do all we can to try and facilitate their return. 

                        Obviously, if we step into the area that we know that the person has a disability, we may need to get Occupational Health involved and send them to an occupational health doctor to get an assessment of their fitness and their ability to return. 

                        And as we do that, more and more we're ensuring that rather than using GPs, who are fantastic and have their place, that we're using the occupational health doctors to get really good reports to facilitate us to assess, "Is the person, for example, fit to engage in the disciplinary or the grievance process that maybe resulted in their absence?" Or if they're unwell, the doctor is assessing, "Are they fit to return, or do they need some accommodations to be made?" And what do those accommodations look like if that is the case? 

                        We are currently in the consultation phase of the new equality legislation that is being proposed, and one of the changes that's been proposed is to review the definition of disability. We await and see what that's going to look like, and we'll keep you updated in relation to changes. 

                        But as we know from case law, the word disability is very, very broad and it covers an array of areas. It's important that we're really conscious that whoever is engaging with that employee as we discuss their return or we discuss their absence, that they're properly trained to know what the boundaries are in relation to what you can ask and then when we should rely on the doctor to do the assessment, because we need that information. 

                        Whenever we talk about absence to do with disability, etc., we always remind ourselves of the great lessons that we've got from the Nano Nagle case, which really emphasises the need to holistically look at the whole job and really engage with the employee and their medical practitioners, and also consider, "Can elements of the job be done by other people? Can we do all we can based on that consultation and that medical advice to facilitate the person to return to the job that they did before?" 

                        And it also reminded us that we don't need to create a new job, but we need to really exhaust that collaborative consultation process and really take on board the learnings from that.

                        In terms of the return-to-work piece, it's really important that we have a plan in terms of the return to work. If somebody has been absent for whatever reason, what is that plan in relation to return? And that should apply to somebody who is returning from carer's leave, maternity leave, an absence of any shape or form including illness-related absence. 

                        So what is the risk assessment we now need to do if that's required? What is it that we need to do in terms of reinduction, in terms of bringing the person up to speed? We may need to facilitate a phased return. Again, what does that look like and what can we agree? 

                        It's really important that we appreciate the fact that this person is likely to be nervous in relation to that return, and the more we do in terms of that initial engagement prior to them returning, it will absolutely pay dividends in the long run.

                        So other considerations to consider as you now review your sick and your absence policies are to consider that ultimately the company needs to have the right to send somebody to the company doctor and get an independent occupational health assessment by a doctor appointed by the company, and the employee is required to go to that appointment and cooperate with that process. 

                        It's also important that the company has the right to engage with the person when they're absent. That is something that has come up a lot for us over the years where the employee doesn't want the company to engage, and we've found that the longer the person remains out, especially if it's linked to a grievance or linked to a disciplinary, the more challenging it is to get the person to engage. So, again, something to be very aware of. 

                        And then the right to request a certificate both in terms of their own fitness for work, but also then a fitness to confirm that they are fit to return. And again, really important considerations. 

                        I would also suggest that it would be really useful to incorporate medical, dental, optical appointments. What is your process in relation to that? I do think that that's something that is going to be one of the areas that is going to come up a lot more in terms of, "Do they apply relation to sick leave?" 

                        Based on the current statutory information we have in relation to the sick pay scheme, it's very much focussed on a medical cert for a medical absence. And that's what we expect that we will have in the final draft. Again, we haven't got a full detail, but from the information we have, the early indications we've been given at this stage. 

                        So I think there's a lot there for everybody in terms of what it is we need to consider in relation to preparing for that new statutory sick pay scheme and also incorporating this statutory sick pay scheme into our current sick plan absence policies, because you can't have one without the other. They need to be very complementary. 

                        Again, we've learned so much around the importance of consultation, collaboration, and engagement, and I think that's something that we need to make sure that we continue to do in light of this new legislation that's coming.

                        And just the final area to touch on is specifically then absence and sick leave linked to COVID. All of you will have had that COVID policy in place and the specific government and health requirements in Ireland clearly outlined for employees in terms of reporting symptoms in the public interest and also if they're a close contract, etc., and the guidelines that they need to follow. 

                        I think as we're planning . . . the government have mentioned September as the return to the office date, and I appreciate many organisations have been working right through in essential services, so there is no specific return for them. But as that starts to transition back and normalise more, I think it's really important that we now start to consider reviewing our return-to-work protocol and our new efforts in terms of what that looks like from September. 

                        We're getting a lot of anxious employees and a lot of worried businesspeople, and HR is the ones who are trying to provide clarity where we have a lot of grey. So I would advise that we start considering, "What does that look like in terms of the return?" 

                        And for many organisations, they're picking a date, appreciating that date could be slightly movable depending on government advice. But for a lot of our organisations, they're picking September as that return-to-work date. 

                        Many organisations are looking at getting employees to apply for what type of working arrangements that they would like, and then they're doing that assessment in line with business requirements. 

                        They're also then tying that into doing a risk assessment of that person's home environment to see if it's suitable for remote working. Remember, up to now, we've had emergency remote working, and the emergency remote working is coming to an end. It won't be coming to an abrupt, sharp end because there is going to be a transition, especially in light of the government guidelines still requiring social distancing, etc. It might be a case that the organisation needs to enforce a hybrid working model because they might need staff to be not all in the office at one time because, otherwise, they won't be able to facilitate social distancing. 

                        So I would suggest that, in line with reviewing your policies around sick and absence, you're starting to review your policy in relation to the return to the office and identifying where employees have work environments in their home, what that looks like, and making sure that you do a thorough risk assessment. 

                        I would suggest that you enhance the government HSA one to cover areas like GDPR, to cover the whole area of confidentiality and cyber, etc., so that when you do your assessment, you're assessing in line with business requirements whether this is something that is feasible.

                        Obviously, there are also cost implications for the organisation very much in line with your attraction and your talent management strategy. We won't attract and retain the best staff, in my view, if we don't proactively plan this hybrid or this remote or this new world of work that's very much topical at the moment. 

                        But remember that if the employee hasn't that safe place of work, they fail at the first hurdle. We can't as employers facilitate remote working after the emergency protocol becomes more normalised if the person doesn't have that right place, that appropriate place of work. 

                        And the second piece I would add to that is to say that it's very much linked to absence management because we're already seeing that employees are saying, "Well, I'm not returning to the office because I have an underlying health condition", or, "Because of my childcare", or, "Because . . ." 

                        So we're starting to already navigate the challenges in relation to the fact that we're now saying it's not an automatic right to continue remote working. You need to reassess, and we need to do that in a proactive way in line with business requirements now. 

                        So I suppose that's a really good summary, Rolanda, of where we're at in relation to the very tropical changes both in relation to the statutory sick pay, and in relation to absence, and also in relation to that COVID piece that is still very much on the horizon but improving positively as time goes on.

Rolanda:         Thank you very much, Caroline. We have had loads of questions in, so we'll take a few. 

Caroline:         Of course.

Rolanda:         There have been a few questions just in relation to implementation dates and amounts. We'll send out some information in the follow-up email just to summarise the key dates they're talking about. But obviously, we're still waiting on quite a lot of detail for this scheme, so some of the questions we can't really provide details. But one interesting one, and I can't find it in any of the details so far, is, "Will the amount be prorated for part-time?"

Caroline:         I would say the fact that they're saying 70% of the employee's wages and up to €110 per day will apply based on the day somebody is absent. That's what I would expect based on the fact that if they were due to work that day, the employee is entitled to 70% of what they would expect to be paid that day or up to €110. 

                        That's the way I read it currently, Rolanda. But as you rightly said, the implementation date is January 2022. We expect it this date, but as soon as we have a further update on that, we'll absolutely let people know. But that's what we're working towards at the minute. 

                        And as you all know, from an HR perspective, if we don't start the consultation and the preparation process now of updating our policies, reviewing what we have, especially based on your poll results that so many people already have sick pay schemes in place, I think it's really good timing to start the process early.

Rolanda:         And just on that point where a lot of the companies already have sick pay schemes in place, will a lot of organisations implement the SSP or combine it into their existing policy so that the first so many days in their company sick pay policy will be SSP and maybe they'll make it up to full pay where they already do that? Or will it be in addition to the 20 days that they already provide?

Caroline:         I think some sick pay schemes that we've already started looking at with clients incorporate things like if you've had your full entitlement in 12 months, there's a waiting period, for example, before you're entitled to it again. That's in conflict with this new SSP scheme, so therefore it will require a revision of those kinds of clauses in the current absence and sick pay schemes that are in place. 

                        But for most organisations, they would have these type . . . for many, there's a waiting period as well. You don't get it for the first three days, for example, and then sick pay kicks in after that. 

                        So, for many organisations, there's a requirement to review and assess, "What do we have? What is proposed? And then in line with business requirements, what are the tweaks and changes we need to make?" Because the minimum is you need to be meeting your statutory obligations. 

                        For example, where the waiting period is, that won't be applicable now. Or where it's a case that you have a waiting period, again, where somebody has taken their full entitlements out, those types of things will need to change.

                        People are asking the question then, "But can we change it on the other side to make it less?" And the answer is, obviously, anything is possible with negotiation. But we can't unilaterally change anybody's terms and conditions.

                        There was a recent case law example from the WRC in relation to unilateral pay cuts during COVID. And even though the business is saying, "But we had to do them", the case law is very clear on you can't make a unilateral change to somebody's terms and conditions. So hence, I think a very good opportunity to start that engagement and consultation process early and assess what it means for your policy.

Rolanda:         Okay. We're still getting a few questions, and I think we might have look into this one a bit more, Caroline. In terms of the pay is 70%, but will part-time staff get the same number of days, so 3 days in 2022, 5 days in 2023, 7 days in 2024, and 10 days in 2025? The guidance so far doesn't really say that it's going to be prorated. So unless it clarifies that . . .

Caroline:         I think it's designed that it's not going to be prorated, is how I read it. I think the idea is that if you're part-time and your absent on that day, that's how it should be treated. 

                        Now, many sick pay schemes would have had prorated entitlements previously, but that's not how I read it currently. But as you rightly said, we're waiting that clarification in the final draft. 

                        As I read it at the minute, I think it's trying to compensate for somebody who's absent on a day of work. So it doesn't matter whether you're part-time or you're full-time. It's basically trying to address that, as I read it at the moment. I've read as much information as they've given us in relation to it so far, so I think that'll be interesting as the final draft comes. But that's currently as I read it. 

Rolanda:         Yeah, I can see that. In terms of the medical certificate side of things, you can envisage some difficulties with that, because if it's a GP's note that you have to get . . . obviously, we've had SSP in the UK for a while, so historically there have been issues where you can't. It's awfully difficult to see a doctor at the minute full stop. How are you going to get a doctor's note for one day of sickness?

                        I wonder will the rules around that relax a bit as time goes on? If you don't get the doctor's note, does that mean you don't pay? Or can you pay [inaudible 00:37:56]?

Caroline:         I think that's one that has got a lot of, obviously, publicity so far. As I said when I was giving the opening comments, for a lot of employees, I think they will be saying, "Look, first of all, I'm unwell so I don't want to travel to a doctor because I'm not that unwell that I need a doctor. I've got a migraine, I've had it before, and I know that I'm unwell to be able to be at work, but I'm not unwell enough to need to go to a doctor". Using that as an example. So I think you will get a lot of push-back on that. 

                        But remember, that's up to you as the employer to decide, "Will we relax that or will we not?" This is one of the terms of the scheme that is being introduced. 

                        I find that a lot of employers have incorporated into their sick pay and absence schemes recently that if somebody has a high percentage of sporadic absence, they reserve the right to request certificates for one-day absences. So I think you can reserve the right to need to. You don't necessarily have to enforce it. It's for you as the employer to have some control that somebody doesn't see this as an extra three-day holiday in 2022. That's why the cert is incorporated into this proposal. 

                        So I think we as HR practitioners and employers can pragmatically decide, "What are we going to do in our organisation?" But if you put it in and say the employee must provide it, I would say then they must provide because that's the comfort that you're being given by government as they put in these proposals that, as I say, people don't envisage it as additional holidays.

Rolanda:         That's always the difficulty with sick pay schemes. 

                        Just to clarify, you mentioned the six-month period that you need to be in service to avail of it, and that will, for a lot of organisations, coincide with the length of their probationary period. If you extend an employee's probationary period to, say, nine months or seven months, are they still entitled after six months to the sick pay?

Caroline:         They absolutely are. And my advice always around probation is it should be 11 months. I know a lot of organisations have it shorter, but I always feel that it's much better to have a longer probationary period. As we all know, during probation, you . . . especially now since the O'Donovan case. Even though culturally and being fair to everybody, we obviously want to ensure that we're giving people every opportunity to improve. During the recruitment process, it might be the first job for many. It might be a new type of work environment. Obviously, the importance of giving feedback early during probation is so important. 

                        We also now are enhancing contracts of employment to reflect the fact of the O'Donovan case where you can terminate somebody's employment while they're on probation for any reason or no reason based on the fact that that probationary clause is robust enough in your contract of employment. 

                        But as you rightly said, the sick pay scheme kicks in after six months, notwithstanding whether the person has passed their probation or not. But I think it focuses our mind as practitioners to kind of really assess, "Look, are we happy what that person?" Because now this is an additional layer of rights they're going to get after those six months pass.

Rolanda:         And there was a question about whether it applied to temporary workers or not. I suppose it depends whether they're an employee or casual worker or whatever, but I'm not sure that the guidance went into detail about that at this stage.

Caroline:         I would say that anybody who has six months, it applies to them after that. And again, that will be quite typical of a lot of our statutory legislation, that once you hit a period of service, it doesn't matter whether you're part-time, casual, full-time. The only obvious cohort that will exclude is those that are contractors, because they're not fitting within the employee definition, so the employment legislation doesn't apply to them. 

                        But ultimately, I would say it won't matter how many hours per se that you work or whether it's a fixed-term contract or whether it's part-time or casual. I think it's the six months that will be most relevant.

Rolanda:         Yeah. And I want to just finish, Caroline, discussing a wee point around something you mentioned just earlier there. It's not 3 days additional holidays or 10 days additional leave. And just a wee bit of guidance for employers on, "This is a statutory entitlement. If you're unwell and you're unable to attend work, you get this payment". But that doesn't mean that an employer has to just put up with people taking sick leave all the time. Can you clarify?

Caroline:         Absolutely. Yeah, really well said, Rolanda, because I think that's people's initial concern with this. It's really great to see that so many organisations have sick pay schemes in place, because it's a real stress and worry for an employee when they're absent for them not to have that, That's, without doubt, a really big motivator and job security incentive in terms of the benefits package, so I'd strongly encourage it. 

                        I think what this also does is . . . I gave you, hopefully, some good tips and guidance in relation to that policy around managing absence. And for me, this is an opportunity to revisit not only your sick pay scheme or to introduce the new SSP, but it's an opportunity to revisit your absence process as well, things like requiring a cert for people who have a high percentage of sporadic absence, doing return-to-work meetings for those that have been absent, and making sure that we're able to engage with employees who are out, making sure they have to go to the company doctor if we require them to. 

                        So I think there's a great opportunity for tidying up our best practice approach to managing absence and hugely supporting an employee equally while they might be going through a challenging time. The employee assistance programmes and all of these other supports that we have in place are really where we can get the opportunity to offer that support and guidance to employees while they are absent. 

                        So I think there's great opportunity both culturally, both from a well-being perspective, and also a procedural perspective to ensure there's no abuse of the scheme by doing your homework early in relation to that sick pay and absence policy now. 

                        Again, being mindful of that COVID backdrop because we're still getting people who are close contacts. We're still getting people who are, even though they may be vaccinated, still turning out positive, etc. So we're still dealing with COVID in the backdrop of the sick pay scheme and the COVID sick pay scheme that's in place and that absence management piece.

                        And my parting comment before I go is to remember the GDPR piece. I think that's something that has caused problems for a lot of clients during COVID. And again, it gives us that opportunity to assess what data are we asking for? Are we keeping it safe and secure? What processing do we do of it? And that whole piece to make sure that we're proactive and as compliant as we can, because that's a big obligation in relation to managing this whole area.

Rolanda:         Okay. Thank you very much, Caroline. I'm sorry we weren't able to answer all your questions. I will send them on to Caroline, though, because it's helpful to know what people are asking. There's Caroline's contact details there if you want to get in touch with her for more information. 

                        Our next webinar is with RDJ on 29 July, and we'll confirm that near its time. 

                        Now, in terms of the SSP scheme, what I would say is that we will keep you updated with any developments in relation to it on the Legal-Island Hub, which you can access at legal-island.ie. It's one of those areas that we will get more information as time goes on and we'll put updates in our weekly review. 

                        So once again, Caroline, thank you so much for your time.

Caroline:         My pleasure.

Rolanda:         We will send out some information, what we've got to date basically on the scheme, in the follow-up email. The transcript from this webinar will be available in a couple of weeks, and the recording as well will be up on the Legal-Island website later today. 

                        So once again, thank you all for your time. Caroline, I look forward to seeing you again.

Caroline:         Indeed. Thanks, everybody, for joining. Take care.

Rolanda:         Bye-bye.