Are you struggling to manage long-term employee sickness in your organisation? Are you tired of losing valuable employees due to prolonged periods of absence? If so, then you will want to watch this recording.

Julie Holmes, Knowledge Partner at Legal Island and Caroline Reidy, Managing Director of the HR Suite discussed how to effectively manage long term absence in the workplace; the latest tools and techniques for supporting employees who are experiencing prolonged periods of absence, as well as strategies for preventing long term absence from occurring in the first place.

Also discussed is best practices for handling long-term absences, including how to communicate effectively with employees, maintain productivity and morale, and navigate legal requirements.

Whether you're an HR professional or a manager responsible for employee performance and well-being, this webinar is a see.

Recording

Transcript

Julie:   Hello and good morning, everybody. Welcome to our webinar. My name is Julie Holmes and I work in the Knowledge Team at Legal-Island. And today's guest, we have Caroline Reidy, Managing Director of The HR Suite.

So in January, we saw the introduction of Statutory Sick Pay. Sickness is an on-going concern in any organisation. So how are you doing? Are you struggling to manage long-term employee sickness in your organisation? Today, we'll look at how to effectively manage long-term absence in the workplace.

And if you're interested in developing and refreshing your knowledge in all things HR, just remember that at Legal-Island, we have an Essentials of Irish employment Law course, which is two half-days online on 13 and 14 June.

We've got two great facilitators, Gerry McMahon and Sinead Morgan. And they'll be looking at areas like contracts, equality and discrimination issues, and fair procedures in discipline and dismissals. So the link is going to be added to the chat for you now, if you're interested in finding out more about this.

But more about today's webinar, Legal-Island's webinars and podcasts are sponsored by MCS Group. MCS help people find careers that match their skill sets perfectly. They also support employers to build high-performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the marketplace. So if you haven't checked them out already, you can find out more by heading to www.mcsgroup.jobs.

Caroline Reidy is a popular and regular speaker at Legal-Island events. Thanks, Caroline, as always for joining us today, and I'm going to tell you a bit more about Caroline just in case this is your first time attending with us.

So Caroline is a past member of the Low Pay Commission and also an adjudicator in the Workplace Relations Commission. She completed a Master's in Human Resources through the University of Limerick. She is CIPD-accredited, as well as being a trained mediator. Caroline speaks widely and writes articles and papers on thought leadership in relation to the future landscape of HR, and the challenges and opportunities that these present for both employers and employees.

So in this month's webinar, Caroline is going to look at the best practice for handling long-term absences, including how to communicate effectively with employees, maintaining productivity and morale, and navigating some of those other requirements. You'll have the opportunity to ask questions and gain valuable insights that you can apply in your workplace straight away.

So just to note, there are no slides for Caroline's presentation. It will just have a background slide. But the recording will be available shortly. So grab a cuppa, get comfy, and get ready to learn some pointers as we delve into employee absence.

Remember to drop any questions for Caroline into the question box, please. And hopefully we'll have some time at the end for questions and answers.

So Caroline, I'll hand over to you. Thanks very much.

Caroline:  Thanks, Julie. And good morning, everybody. Huge thanks to so many of you for joining. We always get such a really big turnout, and delighted to be with you again this month.

 I suppose we try and pick topics that are really relevant and topical to you. And this is one that has been really topical and coming up a lot for us. So we thought it would be one that will be really worth focussing on.

I'm going to give you some food for thought, some areas to think about in relation to this area. And then, as Julie said, we're going to facilitate some Q&A.

I have some lovely sunshine coming in on me here at the minute, so hopefully the sun is shining where you are as well.

I suppose the first thing to consider is we're talking this morning about long-term absence, and different companies would view long-term differently. So we've a variety of different clients who would come to us and they would have a query and they would say, "Look, this employee is out long-term, and we want some advice on how we should address the matter". And the first thing is always going to be, "What does it say in your contract? What does it say in your policy in relation to absence both short-term in terms of the absence policy and how we manage that?"

And remember, we've got our new Statutory Sick Pay now, which you have to incorporate into your contract and into your handbook. One of the requirements of that legislation is that you notify people in relation to it. So even though you may already have a sick pay scheme in place, you just need to confirm that that Statutory Sick Pay is being incorporated into it.

The other key point to note is what is long-term? And when we're deciding what is long-term in a specific organisation, we again will refer back to your policy. That policy is ultimately what the employee and you have signed up to in terms of what you have agreed.

So key things to consider in that policy. The policy is not an endless list, but it really should contain the notification process and procedure. It should contain the importance of being required to make contact with your employer, even if you are absent.

We do find that a lot of employees, when they're absent, or particularly if they're absent and there's another parallel HR issue on-going . . . For example, they may have a grievance against them, or they may have raised a grievance, they may have a disciplinary against them, an allegation of bullying or harassment, etc., and they end up going off sick. Again, it's really important in scenarios like that that we are able to stay in contact with the employee.

 That also applies to an employee who's out on any other form of illness, so that we can engage with them to get an idea of their likely return, get an update on their medical status, etc. So, a really important consideration in your policy.

Also in your policy, the importance of being able to refer an employee to Occupational Health. A lot of employees will submit a cert, and the cert will just say the person is unfit for work. That doesn't give us a lot of information in terms of the person's likely return, in terms of fitness or accommodations that they might need, when they return, etc. So, again, having the ability to refer the person to Occupational Health is important.

Obviously, you need to consider your GDPR obligations because medical data is the highest grade of sensitive personal data. So we need to be extra careful in relation to that.

And I suppose we always ask the employee . . . When somebody says that they're out sick for whatever medical reason, and they may share it with you as their manager or as the person in HR, but before you share it with anybody else, I'd always get the employee's consent. Otherwise, we really should just be saying the person is only unavailable for work.

It's really important not to share any personal details, for example, the details of their condition or their illness, with colleagues or even their manager unless you have confirmed with the employee that you are doing that.

And again, often it's not necessary to know the details of the condition until the person is returning in terms of managing reasonable accommodation, etc.

So again, that policy you'll hear during the whole session today. I'll refer back to it a lot, because ultimately it's what you've agreed in your policy and your contract that ultimately guides a huge amount of the advice that we give in this area.

So other key considerations, then, are obviously in this area we, as organisations, now are very focussed on employee wellbeing. Nearly all organisations have an employee assistance programme. And if you have an employee who is unwell for whatever reason or absent for whatever reason . . . And again, it mightn't just be illness that they're absent for. It might be that their child is unwell, etc. The employee assistance programme is hugely helpful, and making sure that we're empathetic and we're reasonable and we're assisting the employee where we can.

Another area where the employee assistance programme is invaluable is the area of grief at work. Ultimately, I suppose our job is to signpost the employee to any resources that we have that will provide them consolation, support, advice, information, etc. So again, signposting the employee is our best route rather than maybe getting into what we think they should do, or what might have worked for somebody else that we know if we're not an expert in that area.

Oftentimes, in HR, when somebody is absent we don't have the full information. We just have some of the information. So again, this way you're making sure that you're not giving advice in an area that you actually haven't the full details.

I suppose we mentioned at the outset, as well, "What is long-term?" And in most organisations, anything more than three months would be considered a long-term absence. However, you've got to assess that based on your policy, but also based on the employee's actual condition.

And again, the best port of call is to send the employee to Occupational Health after maybe a three-month period. But again, you may feel three months is too soon. It might be the person has broken a leg or an ankle and it might be just taking them longer to recover, so you might decide on that basis that you don't need to send them to Occupational Health.

Well, then you've got to consider before they return, whatever timeline that might be, if they've been out for a prolonged period, that they're fully fit to return and do the duties that they did before. Or you may need to consider reasonable accommodations in line with that Occupational Health advice.

Oftentimes, we get employees who refuse to go to Occupational Health. And what's important is if you have outlined it in your policy that it is a requirement that they go to Occupational Health, which will be accommodated or organised and paid for by the employer, you will remind them that, obviously, we appreciate they're unwell, and we position it and word it as softly and as empathetically as we can.

I've seen some letters, and they've been lacking in every form of empathy. We've got to remember that when an employee is out sick or absent from work, what might be a formally worded letter that you feel you need to do for your paper trail, which you need a paper trail, there's no doubt about it, but they may feel that that's very harsh if you don't make it soft and empathetic and be very conscious of their well-being. Our job is to support and facilitate their return.

Oftentimes, we get people who say, "Well, the person wants me to go to Occupational Health. So they obviously want me to exit the company". And that's not the case at all. But again, hearing them out.

And again, we would always recommend that it's best to try and facilitate a conversation with the person first before sending them the letter.

And ideally, you could explain to them, then, on the conversation how, "It's company policy if you've been out more than three months that we'd send you to Occupational Health. The purpose of it is ABC", and explain the process. So again, any of the queries or concerns they may have, you get the opportunity to nip in the bud easily early on.

 And remember, for them they may go and get a varying view from their own GP. Put in your policy, again, you'll say that if there's a dispute in relation to the Occupational Health, you'll get a third party to review both doctor reports if the employee will allow and facilitate that.

Again, sometimes it might be the employee doesn't want to return, Occupational Health said they're fit to return, but the GP says they're not. Always ensure that it's not a GP that does the report for you.

From a company point of view, it should always be an Occupational Health doctor because Occupational Health practitioners are additionally trained to be able to consider the employee's fitness to return to work or their fitness to engage with the company while they may still remain absent.

And that often occurs if there's a grievance, a disciplinary, a bullying/harassment allegation, etc., where the Occupational Health doctor will say, "The person is too stressed or anxious to return to work environment until this matter is resolved, but they are fit to engage in the process".

And I would always ensure that you get that letter of confirmation that they are fit to engage with you without ever . . . When somebody is out sick, they're out sick. They shouldn't be expected to engage in anything unless they're fit to do so. So always get that Occupational Health confirmation that they are fit to be able to engage with you.

I suppose if you have an employee who isn't making contact when they're out sick or out sick for a long time, so they may have stopped sending you certs or they may not be engaging with you, it's important that we contact the employee via email and via registered post, explain that we're in touch because there obviously is probably an error on their part that they've forgotten to submit the certificates. Obviously, just reminding them that it's the company requirements that they do, and also you want to check in with them.

That's letter number one, and I'd give them a date to revert by.

But if that doesn't succeed, I would then continue with a follow-up letter and a follow-up letter. And if you say in your first letter, "Please submit your cert by Wednesday the 24th", for example, and they don't, it's important that on Thursday or Friday of that week, you're sending a follow-up letter so that you're not leaving months lapse in the middle, that you're trying to keep a little bit of momentum.

Sometimes the person could actually have left or resigned. But remember, they're still your employee until they resign or you terminate their employment. So that means they continue to accrue annual leave and public holidays. And remember, annual leave is for the first 15 months of any absence. It's an important one, I suppose, to note.

So again, you're doing it positively in terms of engaging, and using all forms that you have. If you have a phone number for them, you'll try and contact them by phone, etc. And then you'll keep your paper trail to say, "Dear Caroline, I rang you on this number, which is the number we have from a company perspective. I sent you this email to the email address we have, and I also sent the registered letter". And you're summarising each time the additional contact that you make to show that you've done all you can.

Ultimately, then, you've got to make the decision whether you're going to end up terminating that employee, which will be your last resort. But again, if you are getting no contact and a reasonable amount of time has lapsed, you need to obviously decide.

And sometimes, as well, you'll know the person has left, but you just haven't been notified. So again, you can't make any presumptions until you've got either resignation from the employee or, as I say, that you terminate. Important to consider that.

I suppose the next key area to consider is . . . And I've mentioned there where we're consulting with the employee and we're constantly writing to them and making contact with them. You're not doing it to bombard them, obviously.

I mean, if somebody is out sick and they're submitting their cert, you might agree that you'll meet them. If they've got a long-term absence, that might mean that they're out for a period of 12 months. You explain, "Look, once you're submitting your cert, we're here to help. We've got the employee assistance programme, and I'll check in with you maybe twice during that time. But we'll also keep you informed in relation to any company updates. Should you not want those, just let us know".

So in other words, you're being reasonable with your contact during that period of time, because you know the person is going to take that length of time to recover.

I suppose it's when the employee may have an underlying illness or an underlying disability that you need to consider reasonable accommodation and the consultation process is even more important, even though it's important right throughout managing an employee full stop, and particularly managing absence.

So if you have an employee and potentially they're unwell or they've got a disability, again, you need Occupational Health to confirm what that illness requires in terms of reasonable accommodation. For some people, that might mean alternative hours. It might mean that they can't do the full element of the job.

And remember from the Nano Nagle case, a key requirement for anybody who is long-term absent and then they're returning is to ensure that we exhaust consultation with their GP and with them, and really involve them in the process, and consider all elements of what is reasonable that the company could do.

 It's also important to note you don't need to create a new job, but you do need to consider could other people do elements of that person's job, and they do more of the job that they're able to do if they can do some parts of the job, which was the case in Nano Nagle.

So again, your obligation is to be reasonable, to ensure you exhaust consultation, and to ensure also that you get your Occupational Health advice.

And in all scenarios, you're putting it to the employee to say, "Look, Occupational Health said that because you have a back injury, you won't be able to do the job that you were originally employed to do. These are three alternative roles, etc." And you're looking to exhaust that.

So again, I suppose an important element of the paper trail is to complement the full discussions that you've had in relation to all of that.

A few other key points, and then we'll go to your questions. As usual, we're delighted to facilitate as many Q&A questions as you'd like this morning.

Oftentimes, you may have other HR issues parallel to the person's absence. So the person may be out because they've a grievance, they may be part of a disciplinary themselves, they may have put in a complaint of bullying/harassment, or they may be the subject of one.

So if you have an employee who is long-term absent and it may be to do with stress or anxiety linked to work, and if the Occupational Health doctor is seeing the person, you should check to see, "Is the person fit to return?" But equally, if they're not fit to return, are they fit to engage in the process?

Obviously, the person is out because of this issue, because they both concurrently occurred at the same time, and we feel that to facilitate that employee's request to have the matter dealt with speedily, which most employees want, we would look to see that they're fit to engage while they're out on leave. So again, really important that you do that.

I suppose it's equally important, and you'll remember from a GDPR point of view, that all this data that you may receive is medical data that we really need to treat very sensitively.

And oftentimes, we find that HR may go back and tell the line manager what the condition the person has, and the line manager may share that information with others, yet the employee did not intend for that information to be shared. They only notified their employer out of obligation.

So again, without ever anybody sharing that information, it should only be done with consent. You could end up creating huge breach of trust and upset the employee should that information be shared.

So then if we move forward to return to work, I suppose, again, employee assistance programmes and that empathy and that support, the more proactive that people engage with that from their initial absence really does help with the facilitation of their return.

It's important that you will do a risk assessment, if required. Again, in line with that reasonable accommodation depending on what job that person does. And also, engage in that return-to-work process.

So again, if somebody has been out for quite a while, they may need a re-briefing, they may need a re-induction, they may need a mentor or somebody to support them for a period of time. So don't underestimate the need for reintegration when somebody is out for a period of time.

No different to if somebody was out on maternity or a career break, etc. We always would facilitate that reintegration plan to commence. Same applies in relation to the employees sick and areas in relation to that.

So there are the key areas that I wanted to cover with you from the outset. Hopefully, there's some food for thought. I'm going to pass over to Julie to see if we've got any questions.

But just my major NB caveat, which, Julie, I think I emphasised throughout anyway, is the importance of making sure that we have our policy reviewed and updated to make sure that the employee . . . The time to ensure the policy is right is when everything is fine, and then at least we can refer back to it if we need to when the person is out. And again, that empathy is the second key point.

Julie, over to you.

Julie:   Okay. I think that's a great summary, Caroline. Thank you. You're saying policies and framework first, and then making sure that you use those softer skills like empathy second.

So just really in relation to that . . . this is your first question, really, to put that theory to the test. Sometimes, as you mentioned, an employee specifically may say that they don't want to be in contact with the employer while they're absent. So what types of things do you think employers need to consider in relation to that?

Caroline:  I think the first thing is to understand why they don't want to be contacted. For example, if it's the case they may have a grievance against them or a disciplinary against them, that might be them avoiding dealing with that issue, whereas if it's an employee who is going through a treatment plan, for example, for the next 12 months, they're very different.

And I think you also need to assess what does contact mean? Again, ideally have the conversation with the person if they're out. So again, you're emailing, writing, calling the person to say, "Caroline, I just want to organise some time just to literally check in to see how you are. It's going to take no more than five minutes. The questions I'm going to be asking are can we do anything further to support, to remind you about the employee assistance programme, and also just to check if there's any information that you'd like from us".

I think oftentimes when the employee knows and is forewarned as to what the call is going to be about, there's no stress or anxiety linked to it, whereas if you sometimes ask for a meeting, they're afraid because everything gets probably magnified when somebody is out into a situation that they're more concerned. So I think it's important to put the employee's mind at rest as to understanding the context.

I would start by saying, "Why do they not want to be in contact?" And then really deep dive into what is the type of contact that you need, because it's very hard to agree to something like that without having context behind it.

Julie:   Okay. And I think you just said if somebody is off on long-term sick as well, sometimes those welfare calls, maybe even they're not as often, but just as a check-in and keeping people informed of any changes that are going on in the business so they still feel included and, as you say, that they're not feeling isolated, either.

You did cover about Occupational Health and about how important it is really to almost qualify to people why they're doing that. So just, again, any tips on having those conversations with the employee? Because, as you say, they can get quite worried.

Caroline:  I think the first thing is, again, to try and have a conversation before you send a follow-up letter or email. And in the conversation, you explain that, "Obviously, Caroline, we're concerned and want to support you while you're out. As part of that support mechanism, we send you to Occupational Health. They are experienced medical practitioners in the area of occupational health and their job is to assess and review is there any further support that they would recommend so that we can do all we can to help with your return". So ultimately, I think if you position it that way . . .

 Oftentimes, the employee would say, "Do you not believe my own doctor?" In other words, as if it's a doubt process. Or equally, they might be concerned in relation to what amount of their medical data would be shared with the company. Again, I think we have to make sure that we're very mindful from that perspective.

I mentioned that when I spoke about your policy and having clarity in relation to who sees that Occupational Health report, what's involved in it, and who that data is shared with, because it really shouldn't be shared in my mind.

And again, it should be only information that we need to know. I've seen some Occupational Health forms, and it goes back into the previous medical history, it goes back into medication that they're on, etc. We should only know information that we need to know. And I think if you go with that premise and that basis, you're a lot better off.

Julie:   Great. You did touch on returning to work and making sure that they're well managed. I know that you talked about things like risk assessments. Anything else that you can suggest in relation to return to work?

Caroline:  Yeah, it's a really good one, Julie, because I think for a lot of employees, the longer they're out, the harder it is to return. And the trepidation for them is, "How much has changed since I've been out? Will I get up to speed? Will I settle back in?" So there can be that anxiety additionally, as well as the fact that they're returning. For many, there's a lot of excitement and they're looking forward to getting back with their colleagues and back to their usual routine.

I think the important thing is to have lots of empathy and to have the consultation conversation with the employee to say . . . If somebody is out long-term sick, in one of the conversations you will be saying, "Caroline, when you are fit to come back, let me know as far in advance as you can and we'll put a plan in place around just to make sure that we agree what we communicate to your colleagues. We'll agree your training and re-integration plan. We'll see what you think, we'll see what your manager thinks, and we'll offer you every support that we can".

Having that conversation well in advance of the person returning just takes that uncertainty out of it for the employee. And I think that's really positive, because our whole thing here is to try and focus on getting the employee back healthy to the work environment. We don't want to be adding an additional layer of concern when actually there is no need for it.

So that proactive communication, I think, is what really wins out in all elements of HR, let's be honest. You'll have heard me say before that psychic communication doesn't work, and for sure that is the case particularly in relation to when somebody is out absent from the work environment.

Julie:   Okay. And I think that's a great point because I know when I come back to work after even a week's leave or a little bit of leave, I can't remember my password to get back into the system. So you can imagine somebody coming back to work after six months, gears himself up, comes into the office, and the first thing they can't do is actually log in. So you want to make it as painless as possible, don't you?

Caroline:  That's a really good sign that you've had a really good holiday. If you're that relaxed after a week off, I'm jealous. That sounds a really, really good holiday. You must give me some tips. Work away with your next question.

Julie:   Thanks. I don't know what that says about me. That might be more about my memory, Caroline, rather than anything else.

So the other thing I want to talk to you about was the Statutory Sick Pay, because that was only introduced at the beginning of the year. So just in relation to The HR Suite, what types of queries have you had from employers in relation to long-term absence and has there been an impact related to that?

Caroline:  A few key things, Julie. It's a very good question and a very good point. First of all, I suppose the updating of policies and contractual documentation is key, because even though the company may have a company sick pay scheme, a lot of the companies' sick pay schemes had a three-day waiting period. So you didn't get sick pay for the first three days, for example, and then it kicked in thereafter. And for some schemes, they had from the get-go.

But either way, you need to just flag that Statutory Sick Pay is incorporated into either the sick pay scheme that you have if it started from the first day, or it's not if it didn't.

So again, you need to meet your statutory obligation, which required for many companies updating that policy and that process.

 I suppose what it also has done, Julie, is it has facilitated many organisations to review their full absence and sick leave procedure and process. For example, do you need to ring in? Does it need to be yourself? Can you send a text? Within what kind of timeline? What if the person is going abroad if they're out sick?

Again, there are so many different nuances that it makes it so much easier to consider those eventualities in your policy at the outset rather than waiting for there to be an issue.

Obviously, one of the services we provide is to update people's contracts and handbooks, because there have been a lot of updates not just to sick leave, but to other types of leave as well.

And the other probably key thing with this statutory sick leave has been a bigger focus on putting employee well-being initiatives and EAP, etc., in place where organisations want to proactively ensure they're doing everything they can to keep their workforce fit and healthy. And I think that's something that is very positive.

I suppose one other point to note is we have a lot of employees now and they're working either hybrid or they're working fully remote. And the importance of making sure that if you are sick, just because you're working from home doesn't mean you work from home when you are sick. Again, that's been an interesting development that has also been clarified.

Even though you would argue that everybody should have known that, I think there was a lot of indirect . . . whether it was the manager or the employee expectation in relation to the fact that you might not be well enough to come into the office, but maybe you're well enough to log on and do your emails or do some form of work.

So again, I think the clarification that if you're unwell, it's obviously so much better from a productivity perspective to facilitate the employee to get better and well and then they can come back in that guise, rather than expecting them to trudge on through and it takes longer for them to actually get back to full productivity. So I think that's another positive development.

And again, I think it's the element of social media and WhatsApp and all that good stuff that we're trying to make sure that people are more proactive in relation to the notification process and the notification period.

We also mentioned other things today like Occupational Health, GDPR, etc. So good opportunity to update your policies and your contract, in general, in relation to this area, if you haven't done so already.

Julie:   Okay. And I'm glad you said that because we've got quite a few questions based on some of those. Somebody is asking about long-term sickness because you'd mentioned initially about three months, but they were asking, "Can it start from as little as four weeks?"

Caroline:  You can have a process up to you in your company handbook starting from whenever you feel is appropriate. The reason I would say you do something different from three months is some things like, for example, the broken ankle may take longer, or someone has an operation, it may take longer than a month. But absolutely you can start from a month should you so wish, and then on a case-by-case basis, you consider it.

But you always have to be mindful that if you say a month and, for example, you decide, "Well, Julie is fine. Her illness doesn't require it. But Caroline, actually I will send her to Occupational Health". You don't want to make exceptions so that the person may feel that they're actually being victimised because you're making a judgement that mightn't be objectively justified. They might feel that that's linked to the personality of the person versus actually the illness that they may have.

So absolutely, no problem in starting it earlier. Again, just update your policies to reflect that and always explain the why to the employee.

Julie:   Okay, thank you. As you say, consistency is always very important. What about somebody who is absent during their probationary period, and maybe they're being a little bit evasive, so they aren't submitting any certificates? How would you suggest about dealing with that?

Caroline:  So again, if they're in breach of your policies and procedures, you need to address it immediately with them. Sometimes the person may not realise that, for example, they need to have a cert for X many days. And remember, with the new Statutory Sick Pay, each day you're required to have a cert, or one cert for the cumulative if they take them together.

So again, you're reminding the employee what the conditions of your absence procedure are. And again, you're softly addressing it initially to say, "Look, you probably didn't realise, and I just want to make you aware". Because the person is on probation, that might be the case and that might resolve it.

I suppose it's important that you don't disadvantage or penalise an employee who's on probation, especially if it's linked to a disability or a reasonable absence that they may have.

Obviously, we have employees, as well, who may have . . . they might be regularly late, or they may be regularly absent on a specific day, etc. Their ability to do their job and their attendance, etc., is one of the criteria you can consider while they're on probation. But you can't disadvantage them if it's a legitimate reason that they are absent and they're following your processes and procedures.

Julie:   Okay. So it's interesting that you mentioned about almost authenticity as such. So somebody has asked that they've sent an employee to Occupational Health and Occupational Health has said that there's been no accommodation or no reasonable adjustments to be made, but the employee is insisting on it.

Caroline:  I think you'd have to see what they are insisting on, and again, get into the detail. One of our key requirements in this area is consultation and engagement with Occupational Health and with the employee, and obviously the employee's manager equally, but the employee as well.

So for example, they may be saying, "Look, I'm really tired in the afternoons. I am not going to be able to stay awake and concentrate". Occupational Health may say, "No, she's fine", but you may say, "Well, look, as a compromise here, we'll give you two weeks of mornings only, and then you go back to full-time hours".

You're better off trying to reach an amicable compromise than trying to get into battle with an employee, particularly when our aim in this process is to get them to return healthily and productively with good morale. So I think that engagement and consultation really needs to be to the fore here.

Julie:   All right. And another person has just asked about alternative employment. So if you've looked at all your options, you don't think that there is an option for alternative employment, what would you suggest in that case?

Caroline:  I think your listener there has obviously exhausted fully, which means they've considered alternative roles, alternative departments, locations that might be within commuting distance, and then you've also asked the employee to consider anything that they can come up with as well.

So on the basis that you've exhausted that and you've exhausted to the employee, "Is there anything else you can consider? Because we're coming to the end of our process. We can't think of anything either, and we're going to meet again next week, but look, we're concerned that if we can't find anything and you're medically not fit to do the job you currently do, that your job is now at risk", you need to then start the at-risk conversation with the employee, and then see what they have to say in relation to that.

I find that if you do exhaust consultation first before you go to at-risk, the employee by the time you get to at-risk goes, "Look, Caroline, I agree. Because of my back, I just won't physically be able to stay standing all day", or climb or do whatever they did before, "and actually, I agree there is no other job I can do".

However, if you don't engage and consult with them fully, that's where the issue occurs because they feel that they're being managed out unfairly, which is not going to be conducive to achieving an amicable agreement.

Julie:   Great. All right. Thank you very much. That was very comprehensive. So Maria, if you don't mind changing on to the next slide for us, please. I think Caroline has done a great job there in answering all your questions. And of course . . .

Caroline: Time flies, Julie, I notice at these session. I can't believe time was up that quickly. So hopefully, that was helpful for people. It was a rapid-fire buzzer, I think. Brilliant.

Julie:   Yeah, it was. So in relation to Caroline, as I said, she's actually the MD of The HR Suite. There are their contact details as well, so you can get in touch. And I believe that Caroline is on LinkedIn as well, so involved in lots of different things.

And so, Maria, if we'll go on to the next slide, please. So as I said, a recording of this will be available, or if you prefer, you can listen to a podcast. You just search for "Irish HR and Employment Law Developments". You can use any of those platforms to listen.

And then, Maria, next slide. Thank you. So I've already mentioned about our Essentials of Employment Law, the two half-days online. We'd be delighted if you could join us.

And then we have a special anniversary coming up at Legal-Island. And so for yourselves, we've got lots of free webinars showcasing the latest innovations. We're going to talk about artificial intelligence, to the WRC, to Working Time Regulations, and we'll be talking about all those big upcoming trends. Again, we would love it if you could find the time to join us. Maria will add the link into the chat.

I think that's really all that we have time for today. So thanks, Caroline, very much as always, and for answering all those questions on the spot as well. Never easy.

And I hope for everybody that was joining us today that you found that helpful. I certainly know that there are a couple of things that I'm going to go back and check on as well.

The recording will be available over the next few days. Caroline, look forward to seeing you next time, and everyone else too. Look forward to seeing you when we have the next webinar with The HR Suite. Thanks very much for joining us.

Caroline:  Thanks, everybody.

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