In this month’s webinar, Caroline Reidy, Managing Director of The HR Suite and HR and Employment Law Expert will discuss the contents of the recently published Sick Leave Bill 2021 and outline what this will mean for HR professionals, as well as discuss Christmas party considerations for employers in light of the Covid-19 pandemic.

Rolanda:              Good morning, everyone. Sorry, Caroline and I were busy chatting there, so I forgot to press the start button. So hopefully, you're all with us and you're very welcome this morning to this our final HR Suite webinar of 2021. It's really hard to believe that 2021 is over. In fact, you think over the last two years and 2019 was really the last time that anything was, you know, kind of normal. So I just cannot believe the last two years have flown and but anyway, today you're all very welcome for our last webinar and hope obviously you all have a nice Christmas.

                              And I'm joined as ever by and Caroline Reidy from The HR Suite. And for anyone who isn't familiar, I'll tell you a wee bit about Caroline. She's obviously the managing director of The HR Suite. She's also a past member of the Low Pay Commission and an adjudicator at the Workplace Relations Commission. She has completed a master's in Human Resources through the University of Limerick. She is CIPD accredited as well as well as being a trained mediator. Caroline has worked across various areas of HR for over 20 years in the Kerry Group and in the retail and hospitality sector, where she was the Operations and HR director of the Garvey Group prior to setting up The HR Suite in 2009. 

                              Caroline speaks widely and writes articles and papers and thought leadership in relation to the future landscape of HR and the challenges and opportunities that that presents for employers. And Caroline as many of you will know spoke this year at the Annual Review of Employment Law on the kind of difference between bullying and proactive management. And for anyone who missed that, it was fantastic event I have to say, some really good materials and I'll talk a wee bit more about that and how you can find out what that was like.

                              Now just before I pass on to Caroline, obviously, this time of year the winter is tough for everyone and with that in mind, we just want to promote our Employee Wellbeing Toolkit which has a number of different parts to it. It provides comprehensive training for all Irish-based employees ensuring that staff are aware of the importance of mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. The toolkit is designed to enable all staff training for organisations with seven key mental health and wellbeing topics and areas to choose from. And so it's a kind of modular based programme. And it is a great cost effective way to provide training for all your employees and to show them that as an employer you care about their wellbeing. Now if you want to find out a wee bit more about that, you will get information on the post-webinar email or you can just type "yes" into the question box now. Debby from the eLearning team will get in touch with you directly and provide you with a quotation for your organisation. 

                              So today we're going to be talking about the implications of the sick leave bill 2021 and just we'll touch then on Christmas party considerations for employers. It's been obviously a very contentious area. We're just chatting before live about the whole situation in Downing Street at the minute and so you know, do you object and whatever you do, you obviously don't lie about it. It's really important. And so if you have any questions for Caroline, pop them into the question box, and we'll deal with those at the end, but otherwise, hi again, Caroline, and over to you. 

Caroline:              Thanks so much, Rolanda, and good morning, everybody. Delighted so many of you have made the time to join us this morning. And I'm going to cover the sick leave bill, Christmas parties, alternative to Christmas parties, and I'm also going to touch on the weather warnings because I do think that's very topical as well just to cover that off. 

                              So I suppose to start with, I would always suggest that in any of the areas that we're covering, making sure that you've really good policies and that you've updated your staff handbook is really important. And you'll all know that in the last 12 months we've never had more changes in terms of legislation and one of the requirements we have as employers is to keep our contracts and keep our handbooks up to date and in nearly every grievance or issue that occurs, it'll always go back to what does it say in your handbook, what does it say in your contract. And I think that was one of the big key messages that we always emphasise. 

                              And with the introduction of the new sick pay legislation, one of the requirements associated with that is that we would update our contracts for new staff starting and we would update our handbooks for current employees to reflect what the new sick pay scheme is and that's really important that you do for yourself and your business as well because for many employers, when they look at their absence policy, or they look at their sick leave policy, when there becomes an issue, it's only then do they really probe into it properly. 

                              So I'll give you an example. So for example, if you have an employee and they're out sick and they're absent, if they're not engaging with you while they're out, it's really helpful to be able to say, well, our policy covered the fact that you needed to be able to engage with us while you're out on sick leave. And we may decide that some employees we don't need to engage with them as frequently, but for others we may need to. Another thing we may need to do is send somebody to the company doctor while they're out to assess their availability and their fitness, how likely it is and what timeframe it is in terms of their return. So again, it needs to be reflected in your policy that you can do this. So there kind of just to give you some examples of what you should consider now that you're updating your absence and your sick pay policy, which is going to be reflective of this new legislation. 

                              So to give you an update on the legislation, and I suppose the first thing to note is it currently is at build stage and we expect that this will come in in the coming weeks. You'll remember last year very significant legislation literally was signed in on the 29th, you know, the code of practice on bullying, so we expect that this will become signed into law before Christmas, but just to say that. So it basically, I suppose, gives a legal footing for employees to have an entitlement to sick leave. And where this really got spotlighted was in industries like the meat industry over COVID where many employees were saying, "Well, I was choosing, I couldn't afford to not get paid, therefore I was coming to work and I was sick." So this gives employees a legal entitlement now to be paid sick pay, which is hugely important. And if you have a sick pay scheme already in place, you need now to incorporate this into it. If you give more than statutory sick leave entitlement at the moment, then you have to maintain that. But if you don't, you need to update your scheme to reflect this. 

                              So for example, a lot of employers might have had waiting days where you didn't get paid for the first three days in any absence. But that's now has to be changed because in year one, i.e., 2022 of this scheme, each employee is entitled to three days statutory sick leave per annum and ultimately, they have a plan that that will be increased to five days in 2023, seven days in 2024, and 10 days in 2025. But that needs ministerial approval to do that. And ultimately, I suppose that's what they plan in terms of it increasing by two working days to two weeks by 2025. So again, just to be aware of it.

                              Other key elements of the scheme is that the employee can take them as individual days or consecutive days. There's no obligation that it's either/or. Also, the employee must have 13 weeks continuous service to be entitled to it. And it will run on an annual cycle basis based on the calendar year because some schemes might run from April to April. So again, it's important to note that this is going to run in the calendar year. So if an employee is on probation, on an internship, doing training, etc., that can be paused while they're absent. And again, that will be something important to include in your policy. Again, important to do that and it's also important that you retain any records for a period of four years. So again, an important consideration because, again, that could be inspected and it's important to have.

                              So the statutory sick pay will be kept and the employee is obliged to pay up to 70% of the employees' wages up to a maximum of €110 per day. And this will be something that the government will have the opportunity to review the thresholds, etc., in the future. And it's also important to note that at the minute we've no clarity in relation to what is a typical wage in terms of does it include just basic salary or not, but I would say a bit like holidays, the idea is that the person shouldn't be disadvantaged during the time that they're on the leave. So if they normally get, for example, whatever they get on a normal day's pay, I would expect that that will be what they get. But again, there'll be different questions and scenarios that come out of that depending on your specific business, which obviously, you'll need to clarify in your policy. 

                              So again, you know, the policy, absolutely no problem. Like most other things, we can assist you in drafting the policy or updating your staff handbook should you so wish, and again, that's something you will be doing to reflect the new bullying code of practice, if you haven't already, to reflect the updates in relation to the family leave that has been updated this year and now the statutory sick pay. And the other area that you would be advised to update your contract in your handbook is in relation to the probation clause based on the overseas technology versus O'Donovan probation case, which you'll have heard me mentioned at the annual review. So again, very important updates to do and have effective from the 1st of January for your handbook and your contract of employment, both for new staff and for existing staff. 

                              So any queries around that when Rolanda joins us at the end, I'll come back and take but I think since annual leave, we still have the COVID element associated with sick pay and obviously that's still remaining. But since annual leave accrues while somebody is on absence for the first 15 months, people have got more proactive at managing absence. And again, making sure you have a robust policy that allows you do that proactively is important. And we also want to support those that are unwell, hugely, hugely important. So that's an important consideration. 

                              So then I'm going to touch on the weather warnings, and then we're going to talk about Christmas parties. So I suppose the important thing to note is if there is a red weather warning and even in some cases, if there's a serious orange, you need to make a judgement as to whether you're going to close your office, your business, etc. And this week since the indication was that there could be at minimum orange and obviously, there ended up being red, a lot of employers were engaging to say, so what do we do? Do we have to allow people take holidays, or do we pay people or what is the scenario? 

                              So the scenario is that if you close your business, then you're obliged to pay the employee while the business is closed. If it's a case the business remains opened, if the employee can't come to work, you can give them the option of taking a day's holidays. You can decide whether or not you want to pay them. Remember though, you're going to be setting a precedent around that. And again, we're having more of the weather issues as time has gone on and also, you can't request an employee to take a day's holidays because you need to give them 30 days' notice to do that but you can facilitate them to take it as holidays. 

                              For many these schools being closed is a huge issue for childcare. So again, facilitating people in that situation is essential. And again, you know, the fact that we have hybrid working so up and running in many businesses that can facilitate hybrid working, that has been something that has been maximised also for people with these inclement weathers. I would again, back to my old adage of make sure you have a policy associated with the weather warnings, because it is really important that employees know health and safety trumps everything, and there's no expectation for them to travel if they feel it's unsafe to do so. And again, emphasising that as a key message but again, update your policy. If you have one already, fantastic. If you don't, definitely draft inclement weather policy to say what is the expectation and what is it that we expect for people to do. And again, the clarity means people know what situation is in advance. And there's been some WRC cases taken in relation to that already where there's been frost in different scenarios, so we have good guidance to assist in drafting what's fair and reasonable in relation to those scenarios. 

                              So the next area I'm going to touch on is Christmas parties and in relation to Christmas parties, as Rolanda said, they have become really controversial this year for so many reasons. Like I empathise hugely with the hospitality trade, where a lot of parties have been cancelled. But because the guidance at the moment is to work from home where it's practicable to do so and to limit our social contacts, then it in my view would be the right thing to do to not have social gatherings with your full staff from a contingency and risk perspective that if somebody got unwell, what are the implications, but also from the pragmatic piece around it's the lead up to Christmas, if anybody was to get COVID at an event to do with work and their Christmas was to be in jeopardy. 

                              So I think all employees even though everybody would love to have had a Christmas party in person because there's no question about it, people are really missing that human contact, that the right thing to do in my mind, is to try and do an alternative to the Christmas party. Many alternatives that are being explored, combined with doing some sort of a virtual get together for people is the option of looking at gifts instead. And just to remind you, you can give somebody a gift that once it's a one amount up to €500 in the small benefits tax exemption, and many people that's the approach they take. It can't be cash. It can be a gift, or it can be a gift voucher. So again, many employers are looking at that option this year for the reason that there isn't a Christmas party and also appreciating the fact that people have had a very, very challenging year. So this is a good opportunity to acknowledge and reward staff in relation to that. So again, just giving you that option.

                              And also in relation to Christmas parties, if they were to go ahead, always remember that we're in the backdrop of the new bullying code of practice. So you will all have done Dignity and Respect at Work training with your employees this year. Or if you haven't, it's definitely really high on your priority list for 2022 because it is an obligation of the policy of the code of practice. And remember the code of practice in relation to bullying is not just a HR obligation. It's also a health and safety obligation so that vicarious liability is even higher in relation to that. So again, important to note and important to remember. 

                              So again, Christmas parties, any inappropriate behaviour that happens at the Christmas party is a Christmas event. And ultimately, even if people say, well, the cutoff for the we all go home and half 10, for example, so what people do after that is in their own time. That's not the case in the eyes of the law, because it's an event that . . . there's work people at, it overflows into the work environment. If either party raise an issue in relation to sexual harassment, bullying, or harassment. So again, just making sure people are aware of that if you decide to go ahead with a gathering. And the same applies if people organise their own informal gathering because some people are saying, well, we've cancelled the main party, but a staff member now has organised for a gang to go out. So in that happening, that becomes part of our issue from a work perspective as well. And it's important that people understand the same rules apply and again, just from a COVID personal responsibility perspective, that they're aware of the implications around that as well, because again, remember in line with the health and safety legislation, everybody has an obligation not alone to keep themselves safe, but also that of their colleagues. So again, just to be mindful of both COVID and of that piece around bullying, harassment, and sexual harassment.

                              And again, in the lead up to Christmas every year, people would say, well, look, you know, they know that there's no need to remind them and we know from the amount of grievances that occur, there'll always be some. So err on the side of caution if you know people are even thinking about it, just let them know the company position in a very positive and responsible fashion. So I suppose that's probably key considerations. And again, like most things, it comes back to making sure people are fully informed in relation to all of the areas we touched on today. 

                              I would also just remind you that as we are in the December, January time of year, reaching out to people to emphasise how positive their contribution has been during the year, reaching out to check in with people and see how they are, even if team leads are only doing a quick check in for a short amount of time, I think it's really, really important to give people that time to check in to say, "How's everything going for you? Are we on track?" Particularly in the current environment where mental health is a concern, a lot of people are worried the hybrid model has been introduced in many work environments. Social elements are more strained relationships and just in the general context of retaining people in the current environment. So I would strongly encourage you, and I appreciate how busy a time of year it is for everybody, but just to do that check in with people and to emphasise the we're there to support and listen and really want to make sure that we do that supporting and listening as we come to the end of what has been a roller coaster of a year, I think it's fair to say. 

                              I was chatting to a client this morning. And we were chatting about the storm and the impact from a staffing perspective, etc. We were also saying it was nice to get a break from COVID because all that was talked about yesterday was the storm Barra. And I think we're all glad to get that little bit of a reprieve as well. 

                              So I'm going to welcome Rolanda back. And our update this morning is short and sweet, so we'll probably finish a little bit ahead of time, and delighted to support you and thank you, Rolanda, for sharing our details, but for updating your contracts, your handbook, general HR queries, etc., please don't hesitate to contact us. And delighted to answer any questions, Rolanda, anybody may have. 

Rolanda:              Thanks, Caroline, and there are loads. So we'll start off with an easy one just to clarify . . . 

Caroline:              Is there such a thing, Rolanda? Is there such a thing?

Rolanda:              So just to clarify the maximum payment for SSP, I think you said it was a maximum of €110 per day?

Caroline:              Or 70% of the person's wages, so whichever. The maximum is 110. Yeah. 

Rolanda:              And those two, that can be changed over time by regulations, etc. Okay.

Caroline:              I think the idea, Rolanda, is to keep it in line with minimum wage and other things as they move so that will be moving consequently as a result of that as well. 

Rolanda:              Okay. And in terms you mentioned, as well and just to clarify, waiting days, so I think the scheme doesn't have any waiting days that will be from your first day of sickness, is that correct? 

Caroline:              So once you have 13 weeks' service, it's from the first day of sickness, but many sick pay schemes that companies would have in place already would have waiting days. So if they do have waiting days, they need to reposition their sick pay scheme to say you're going to get your statutory sick pay on the first three days. And then our standard sick pay will kick in after that. And that's been one of the big updates for a lot of our clients in terms of changing what was a scheme that had waiting days into now the statutory sick pay scheme being incorporated into it. And still making sure that no matter which scheme they go with, whether it's the COVID illness benefit or they're going with the sick pay scheme that the company has, that we're also making sure that they claim whatever illness benefit is available from the state, and that gets reimbursed to the company. So again, another important consideration for your policy. 

Rolanda:              Okay, and that answers the second question that I was going to ask, so that's great. So, basically, if you have a more generous scheme, shouldn't be reducing that in any way because of statutory sick pay? Statutory sick pay is a bit of an addon maybe for employers. Is that . . . 

Caroline:              Absolutely, because what employees now currently enjoy in their contract of employment are their terms, so we can't reduce those. We need to make sure they get these. This statutory has to be the minimum that they get. 

Rolanda:              Okay. And I think you mentioned something about the probation periods in light of the sick leave bill about time off in sickness. You mentioned something about pausing. Can you clarify just that, Caroline? 

Caroline:              No problem. So for example, if somebody is on probation, as we would in any scenario if somebody is absent, we would let somebody know that if you're absent while on probation, your probation is going to be paused. So, for example, if the person's on a three month or six months' probation, and they're absent for a month, their probation has been paused for that month. So it gets added on to the end, so it gets extended by a month, for example. However, remember, if they go over the 12 months, the unfair dismissal act still applies. We've lots of good case law to show that if somebody does go over 12 months and they're still on probation, and they were absent during that time, it will be considered based on the case law that once we're performance managing somebody during probation, that that's valid. We communicate that . . . 

Rolanda:              [inaudible 00:24:40]

Caroline:              Sorry, Rolanda. The important thing is we need to communicate that. Like so in your policy, make sure the person understands when on probation, it's going to get paused and also to communicate to the employee at the time that they go absent, say, obviously, you're absent or you're on probation, so that's going to be paused during this time. 

Rolanda:              And just to clarify, I suppose, that this sick leave bill is obviously providing for paid sick leave, but that doesn't in any way surely diminishment an employer's ability to manage short-term absence from work. So certainly, because leaves on SSP absence doesn't mean that that can't be taken into account when considering their overall attendance record. 

Caroline:              Absolutely. However, remember, as part of this legislation, somebody can't be penalised for availing of it. So that's the key differentiation now. So, for example, if it's a case that somebody availed of their three days, we can say, well, in your first three months of employment, you took three days absence, and we consider that to be excessive, for example, because that's penalising them for having availed of what is there for them. Now, they won't get it until after 13 weeks like [inaudible 00:25:54], but you understand my point, so we just have to be careful that in our communication to employees and that's why the updating of the policy to reflect how we'll manage absence during this time will ensure that we're not penalising somebody for taking this. But as you rightly said, we're still managing absence as we would ordinarily. 

Rolanda:              Okay. I was looking at the bill this morning and in terms of enforcement than they can make a claim to the WRC, is that correct? 

Caroline:              That's exactly it. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I would expect it'll be two key main cases coming out of this. One is I didn't get my entitlements. I wasn't paid. Or second, I was penalised as a result of taking it. I would say there will be the two key areas that probably will be most common a grievance with the employees. And again, even encouraging that to be exhausted internally as far as the internal grievance procedure should people have an issue with it, again, should be reflected in your policy. 

Rolanda:              And I noticed as well, sorry, that it said when it talked about who was entitled to the pay, the statutory, it included temporary workers in terms of agency workers.

Caroline:              Again, being clear, it's employees. So again, if you have employees, whoever employs them, they're obliged to enforce this scheme. So again, whoever's the employer would be obliged to enforce this. So they're an employee of whoever and they are obliged to enforce it the same as interns, the same as those on probation, everybody would be entitled to this. 

Rolanda:              Okay, okay. Now, I could probably ask questions all day about this sick pay scheme, to be honest, because it's really interesting, but we'll move on a wee bit and talk about . . . You did talk and I think you've probably answered this question, but just to clarify, you mentioned and I had a question earlier as well, of like, if you're giving prizes, or if you're giving a benefit in lieu of a Christmas party, that there are revenue implications but there is a tax free amount for that. I think you mentioned that. Could you maybe just clarify that again, Caroline? 

Caroline:              Yeah, so under revenues guidelines, there's a small benefit tax exemption that you can give an employee which is €500, but it needs to be a maximum of €500, but it needs to be given in one package, I suppose. So it can't be a case that you give 100, 100, 100 over the year, for example, to make up the 500. So it needs to be one amount given at one time, mostly, for most organisations, that's Christmas. And obviously there's a big value in that on the basis it's tax free, you know, it obviously is much more attractive for any employee receiving it. So that's the option, but it can't be cash. It can be a voucher, or it can be a gift. 

Rolanda:              Okay. Just when talking about the weather there you mentioned about red warnings. A good question in here, Caroline, about power outages for someone is working from home, you know, that they're unable to work because their power's gone down. Should they be paid or not paid? Because they're not [inaudible 00:29:14] because of there no Wi-Fi [inaudible 00:29:17]. 

Caroline:              I would say they should be paid because the business is opened, they're present and available for work. It will be the same as if they were in the office and the power went out. And we would still expect to pay them because you can't give me notice today to say, "Okay, well look, Caroline, you don't need to work in the afternoon." Obviously, as the person says, "Look, I'm happy not to work. I have the kids home anyway. And I'm happy to take a half day," that's fine. But again, to treat people consistently, I would say there has to be the trust piece, otherwise, you'll have everybody saying, "Well, I have no power and therefore can I take the day off?" So there has to be trust that we expect that people will be available for and trying to work and for a lot of people what they did was download whatever they needed, so if they didn't have internet, that they were still able to work and all computers and laptops will give you at least three hours power and it's bright in the middle of the day, etc. So most people will do all they can to make themselves available for work, but we know from last year and the year before, we can expect that they will be a few more of these before we get to the spring of next year. So now is the ideal time to make sure that policy reflects what your policy is. So again, you're treating everybody consistently and that's the trick here. You're not saying, "Well, Rolanda is a star employee," which of course you are, Rolanda.

Rolanda:              Of course.

Caroline:              We're not treating you more favourably, just because we were saying, "Well, Rolanda would be working if she could," and then somebody else we say, "Well, look, that's not good enough." So again, it's the employment relationship so much based on trust that to me, I'd absolutely be paying them and I would be putting the parameters in place to say, "Look, the morning of a storm warning, please download whatever you need to be working on, so you're not depending solely on the internet, or plan alternative work if you can," because most people can. Most people can say, "Well, actually, this is this thing I needed to get off my desk anyway." And then if they can't, I think you just have to accept that that's just part of your business that will occur, hopefully, infrequently, but on occasion. 

Rolanda:              Yeah. I suppose for a lot of people you still have a wee bit of battery power maybe in your laptop for a while until . . . Yeah. Okay, talking about Christmas parties then and so obviously, as you said, a lot of them have been cancelled, but some staff may think that let's just go out for a drink or let's do whatever. So, you know, are you recommending that employers be kind of proactive in relation to that and remind employees that if they do do that, it's an extension that policies apply? Can you clarify just that area, Caroline? 

Caroline:              Yeah, I suppose, I think if you're telling people you've cancelled the Christmas party, I think you need to them caveat it to say, "Look, the reason we've cancelled or the reason we're not going ahead with one," even if you hadn't cancelled, "is to do with health and safety is to do with ensuring that you all have a good Christmas with your family and friends. And we want to do everything we can. That's the government guidelines to reduce our social contacts," and all the rest of it. 

                              And then I would put in my next paragraph to say, "Therefore, you know, even though you might be thinking about doing informal social gatherings yourself, then , ultimately, I would suggest, that you try and avoid them on the basis of the government guidelines being reduce our social contacts, etc. And also reminding people that all the normal policies still apply, bullying, harassment, sexual harassment, dignity and respect, etc. And just to be aware of those or we would encourage people not to go ahead," because I think if you put it out there to say, look, we encourage you not to, that gives the company a lot of comfort that they have made the right decision in light of the current backdrop, and I think that's what that's all we can all do is try and make the best decision for the best of people, you know?

Rolanda:              Okay. We've just have a mountain of more questions and about the SSP. So we'll just go back maybe and try and see if we can cover a few of those. You have talked about some of these or some of these you've dealt with fairly quickly. And so in term, some people are saying if the policy already says six months for the company sick pay scheme, does that have to be changed because it's 13 weeks for SSP or could you still have six weeks for company and 13 weeks for SSP? Six months . . . 

Caroline:              Yeah, so I would 100% keep what you have because I do think 13 weeks is too soon. Like people won't have even passed their probation and if you've somebody who's out sick for a long period of time, for some employers, they will have sick pay schemes from the very first day people start. If they do, that's fantastic. But if you're a very small SME, and you're currently putting in a sick pay scheme, you might do this statutory sick pay for the first six months, and then after six months, your own sick pay scheme comes into effect. So I think I would keep what you have. If you want to enhance it, I think it's brilliant because no doubt about it it's been one of the most contentious things during COVID where people have the COVID sick pay scheme. Outside of that not having a sick pay scheme has caused people a lot of hardship and a lot of distress. So I think it's really welcomed that it's being introduced, just even in the minimum three days that we're seeing here. 

Rolanda:              Okay. Now, one thing I don't know if you mentioned was the medical cert thing. So some companies may allow people to sell cert for the first whatever number of days but it does end the regulations for SSP. An employee has to provide some sort of medical certification, isn't that right? 

Caroline:              And it is a doctor's, GP's medical certificate that's required. And I suppose the important thing to remember is at the minute it's just three days, so for many people, they'll say, well, three days isn't so bad, even though it's a cost to the company. It's not so bad. And if somebody else for one day versus three days, maybe I'll say it's okay, you don't need to for one day, but then you need it for three. But all I would say to you is whatever policy you set now that's going to populate a set of precedents for when the scheme goes up from three days to five to seven to 10. So I would say you should in your policy say the scheme requires you to have a cert from day one. The company may waiver that on a discretionary basis in ad hoc circumstances. However, if at any stage the company needs to invoke that, it can. Because take it that you have a 10-day scheme where remember now somebody can't be penalised for taking it and they take every Monday that they're out sick for a period of time, and they're getting certified . . . you follow me? So I do think consider the exception of somebody breaching the scheme and you needing to invoke it as much as anything else. So I would say keep with the parameters of the legislation so that you have the option to invoke it. And then for your own scheme, you can put additional requirements in should you so wish. 

Rolanda:              Okay. And I suppose that's a good benefit then for an employer to kind of advertise that they have more generous sick pay schemes than they . . . do you have any idea, I'm not sure it says when it might come in? I think it's gone through the scrutiny process. 

Caroline:              1st of January. 

Rolanda:              1st of January.

Caroline:              We expect it will be the 1st of January. Yeah, we expect it will, but it will be tight, to be honest, but we'll obviously keep everybody updated in relation to it. And again, you've all the social media there, etc. And we'll be doing a webinar I'm sure in January, Rolanda. And we'll remind people as well when it becomes effective from, but January is what the proposed date at the moment is but a lot of this legislation gets signed off last minute [dotcom 00:37:15], so I expect that this may be last minute dotcom, but I expect it will be the first of January.

Rolanda:              And just clarify because somebody asked the question as well. The three days don't have to be in a row. They can be a day that's months, a day, and other months, and really they kind of the timescale for the year starts from the first day of absence rather than say January. 

Caroline:              No, it's a calendar year. So it's from the 1st of January to the end of December. That's their three days. They get a new three days the next calendar year. 

Rolanda:              Right. Okay. Okay. Good question here about notification. And I have to say in GB that's had sort of sick pay for a long time, controversial issues around whether the employee, you know, the [inaudible 00:38:03] of their absence and can you withhold SSP if they don't know the facts? If somebody just sends a text message instead of the policy saying that you must speak to your manager or send an email, do you think you'd be able to withhold SSP? 

Caroline:              I think this comes back to your policy. I'm like to broken record with the old policy, but it is so important because if the employees have all accepted that as their policy, they need to follow the policy guidelines and scheme for again, they can't be penalised for applying for the statutory sick pay. So they can't be penalised. So the notification at the moment is that they note . . . obviously, they have to tell you that they're not coming in, but also they need to make sure that they give us the sick cert. So from that perspective, making sure people understand okay, this our current notification period, that still applies for this scheme, but obviously you will be dealing with that. You won't be able to penalise them. You will be dealing with that through the performance improvement scheme, etc., or disciplinary if it really comes to that rather than saying we're withholding the money, because to me that's penalisation. 

Rolanda:              Yes, of course. And I think that's what the outcome really was in GB that kind of changed the [inaudible 00:39:25] piece under because you haven't got the correct notification because the reality is that if I'm sick today, the chances of me getting this sick line from a doctor today are probably quite slim, given the COVID pandemic and how busy GPs are with vaccinations, etc. 

Caroline:              And just remember as well, there's no . . . like in all these things as well, the biggest thing we need to consider is what's fair and reasonable. So we need to be fair and reasonable as employers and HR practitioners and business owners, etc. But the employee needs to be fair and reasonable as well. So, again, ensuring we emphasise that in our policy and in our approach, I think, Rolanda, helps an awful lot. Is that all right? 

Rolanda:              Yeah, okay. One final question just before we go. One of our part-time staff is a pro rata. 

Caroline:              It basically is they get three days the same as anybody else. That's the way it stands because the idea is that you get your days doesn't matter whether you're full-time or part-time, whatever your day is, that's what you get. Again, the idea is you're not disadvantaged. So like the ideas of we both . . . if I work five days and you work three, if we're both absent on a Monday, we both get paid the sick pay on a Monday. That's the idea of the scheme. 

Rolanda:              And I suppose the approval rating comes in terms of the pay because if you earn . . . if you only work a half day, for example, then it's based on what your half day's pay as opposed to . . . 

Caroline:              Absolutely, but it's not based on the fact that if I'm working on a Monday, I get whatever I usually would get on a Monday up to the parameters we said, but it's not a case of three fifths of the week or something like that. It's based on the day.

Rolanda:              Very good. Okay, thank you, Caroline. We could obviously talk about this all day. There's going to be a whole lot of questions no doubt come up for employers in relation to the workings of it and how they came back and all that sort of thing. So just moving on now, just before we go, I mentioned at the start that Caroline spoke that this year's Annual Review of Employment Law, and if you weren't able to attend that but you would like to watch all sessions and get all the notes and you're able to avail of our offer to which provides you with the video and note bundles. And you can find more information about that on our website there at events and if you tick on annual review, it'll give you all the details. It's a fantastic opportunity. And you can watch them at your leisure. And for anyone who did attend, then just a reminder that within your information you received, you'll have links to all the videos then and any other stream that you weren't able to watch. So it's really good idea to do that because there are some fantastic sessions at this year's.

                              And really that brings us to the end. Thank you very much, Caroline, for all our webinars over the years, and all the articles. I'll maybe send you all those questions around sick pay because there were quite a lot there that very helpful to kind of pull something together on it. Our next scheduled webinar that we have at the moment is on the 19th of January with Jennifer Cashman for her annual review of employment law. For many who attended the annual review, you'll know that Jennifer speaks every year. She then does a follow-up webinar in January to talk about some developments since then and she'll obviously mention statutory sick pay at that point as well. 

                              So thank you all for your time. And thank you once again, Caroline, and I hope you have a fabulous Christmas. 

Caroline:              And Happy Christmas, everybody. It's the first [inaudible 00:42:47]. And so yeah, enjoy the break and we'll see you all in the new year. Take care, everybody. Thanks to Rolanda. Cheers. Bye.

Rolanda:              Thanks, bye. Bye-bye, all. Bye.