President Donald Trump issued executive orders rolling back DEI efforts across the US, which contributed to job cuts in the public sector and prompted some companies to reconsider their diversity policies. Major corporations - including Meta, McDonald's, and Bank of America - have adjusted their DEI strategies, scaling back public diversity targets and shifting towards ‘merit-based’ hiring practices.

If research found diverse teams are 70% more likely to capture new markets, why is opposition to DEI increasing?  Could this signal a shift for businesses in Ireland as well? With global organisations reassessing their commitments, HR leaders in Ireland face key questions:

•    Does a strong DEI strategy drive business results, or is it just an added expense?
•    How might changing global trends affect Irish workplace policies and expectations?
•    Should businesses double down on inclusion or take a more measured approach?

Julie Holmes from Legal Island and industry experts examine whether businesses should sustain, reshape, or scale back their DEI commitments in response to shifting global trends - and what this means for HR leaders in Ireland.
 

Transcript:

Julie: Good morning, everybody, and welcome to today's webinar hosted by Legal-Island. I'm Julie Holmes, and I'm delighted to be joined by not one, not two, but three respected experts to explore a topic that's sparking debate across the business world, and that's how organisations should respond to the shifting global DEI landscape.

Now, just before we start, I'm going to tell you a little bit about our sponsor. Legal-Island's webinars and podcasts are sponsored by MCS Group. MCS help people find careers that match their skill sets perfectly. They also support employers to build high-performing businesses by connecting them with the most talented candidates in the marketplace. And if you're interested in finding out more about how MCS can help you, then head to www.mcsgroup.jobs.

DEI has been at the forefront of HR strategy for years, but recent shifts, especially in the U.S., have put it under scrutiny. Are we seeing a global retreat from DEI? And what does this mean for Ireland?

So to help me unpack this today, I'm joined by a few guests. I'll ask the guests to wave as well so that everybody knows who you are. So Dr Mamobo Ogoro is founder and CEO of GORM, an intercultural consultancy and award-winning social enterprise on a mission to unify across differences and advance belonging for marginalised communities. Mamobo is also a social psychologist. I'm very excited to have her on the programme today. Thanks.

Next, we have Aoife Gallagher-Watson, who is Director of Employment Law for EY Law Ireland. Thanks very much for joining us, Aoife. Aoife has over 15 years' experience of working in-house and with top-tier law employment teams in Ireland and overseas as well, and Aoife also writes for our Hub at Legal-Island as well.

And last but not least, we also have Preeti, who is a contributor to the Legal-Island Hub as well. Preeti Dwivedi is a chartered member of the CIPD, and she's also an HR talent and leadership expert.

Preeti is an experienced HR professional who turned into a career and leadership coach and trainer, and she brings over 17 years' experience across various companies and roles across Europe, the UK. And again, we really appreciate that global perspective.

So you'll have met our guests, and anxious to hear what they say. You'll see that there's a Q&A box up at the top. So please feel free to drop in any questions.

But before we hear from them, we want to hear from yourselves first. So fingers at the buttons, everybody, and we're going to start off with a couple of polls.

So first of all, has your organisation been affected by what's happening in the U.S.? And you'll be able to see on the screen right away that we have people voting, and we're just going to wait for a few minutes to get as many people to participate as possible.

We were talking a little bit earlier about watching the news. Are you still watching the news, or are you limiting yourself, or are you like Dr Mamobo Ogoro, who is watching puppies and nicer news stories to try and get a better balance in her day? And she'll be able to tell us about that.

So, at the moment, we can see that 26% of you are saying that yes, you have been directly affected by what's happening in the U.S., but about 74% of you are saying no, not at the moment, but probably keeping an eye just to see what's happening.

The next question that we're going to ask, and Gosia will bring that up in just a moment, is what is the current state of health of DEI within your organisation? So is it thriving? We've got somebody very enthusiastically marking thriving right away, which is great to see. We've got "making headway, it's going in the right direction". We've got some people that are saying, "We're having a bit of a blip, struggling with some challenges". And we have other people saying that at the moment, they don't have DEI in their organisation.

It's just interesting to get an overview to see where you are. So, again, you can tell us whether you're thriving, making headway, struggling, or non-existent. So far, we have been very encouraging "making headway in the right direction".

Thanks, everybody, for participating in those polls, and that will give our expert speakers just an overview of where we are at the moment.

So, first of all, I'm going to ask a question of all three of you. Preeti, you are first on my screen, so I'm going to ask it to you first of all. Based on the polls and based on your knowledge of DEI in Ireland, what letter grade would you give DEI if you were marking it on a report card?

Preeti: That's a very good question, Julie. And by the way, after seeing the polls, I am quite encouraged to give it an A-plus.

Julie: That's a nice positive start.

Preeti: Yeah, I was really happy to see the polls. So yeah, I think A-plus.

Julie: Okay. That's great, Preeti. Thank you. And then Aoife, what about yourself?

Aoife: Yeah, thanks, Julie, and thanks for having me. That's actually really positive, I think, and really encouraging, and it kind of reflects what we've been seeing on the ground lately as well with the clients that we've been working in.

If I was to give us a grade from a legal point of view, I suppose we might not be top of the class. We're not perfect, but nobody is. I actually think we're in a really good position, though, legally. Our framework, it's tried, it's tested, it's quite robust, it's quite strong. There are protections there for individuals in the workplace against discrimination, harassment, and sexual harassment. There are laws in place to promote equal treatment and equality in the workplace.

Is there room for improvement? Yeah, probably. Isn't there always? But even then, I think we're moving in the right direction. If we look ahead, we've got a pay transparency directive coming. We've got CSRD. And from my point of view, I'm probably most excited to see what CSRD is going to bring into the mix because that's going to cast the net a lot wider.

What we've been looking at, I suppose, with the recent regimes and even looking at pay transparency, we're looking at the gender pay gap and gender inequality. And obviously, that's an issue that needs to be looked at and those laws are in place for a reason. But CSRD is going to require employers to drill down into much more detail, and we're going to need to reflect on and report on metrics such as diversity and disability, health and safety, work-life balance.

So it's kind of going to just bring things out a little bit wider and make employers, I suppose, think a little bit more. So I think we're doing really well, and I think we're headed in the right direction.

Julie: Okay. So letter grade. It doesn't sound like there's an A there, Aoife. What would you say? What would you suggest?

Aoife: I'd say B-plus.

Julie: All right. So we're in the pluses. That's great. And then Dr Ogoro, what would you say, Mamobo?

Dr Ogoro: Yeah, it's really refreshing to see what the viewers believe their organisations are, and it's great to hear that most of the people are in a great thriving or even moving towards the right direction, which is really beautiful to see.

As Aoife mentioned, we have a really great bedrock when it comes to the legal protections as it relates to discrimination, victimisation, and even when it comes to reporting on elements in the area of DEI.

And in my work, I do a lot of work when it comes to not just the compliance measure of DEI, but embedding it into our culture and embedding it into how people engage, how they trust the organisation and how they value their work as well.

And I think when it comes to my work and perception of Ireland particularly . . . Side note, DEI is huge. So those who are still trying to get into it, I have to tell you that it's a building block, it's a slow burner, but it's very worthwhile when you actually do it.

But I'd like to say when it comes to the whole element of embedding diversity, equity, and inclusion, and some people once even add the word justice into it, to change systems, I would say probably we're at a B-minus or C when it comes to moving into that inclusive practice rather than just leaning on to the compliance element of it.

So it's important to understand that when we . . . especially on an organisational level, which it can be really hard to do it. And obviously, it starts with leadership, but it's important to understand that yes, we need that compliance level of it, but at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. People are my favourite animal, I like to say. So they're very complex, and it comes to emotion, it comes to feeling, and it comes to trust in the organisation, which is fundamental to building an inclusive environment.

That's where we can start to gather that data. That's when we can start to gain that knowledge to go back to, let's say, our compliance reporting.

So when it comes to that element of it, I feel specifically in Ireland, and even gathering data as well, there's a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of specifically that trust, that psychological safety, that feeling of belonging within the organisation, which is very linked to just people in general.

Julie: It does. Thank you very much.

Aoife, you'd actually mentioned about our framework, and you kind of pre-empted what I was going to ask you in relation to the fact that we do have a nice legal framework for it. But if we were to see things roll back a little bit, where do you think the risks would be? So where are you seeing employers get it wrong, or where are we going wrong with DEI?

Aoife: I mean, it depends what way you're going to do it and where you're coming from. And I think Mamobo mentioned people are coming from a different place, and this is a journey. I think culturally in Ireland, we have quite a positive attitude towards DE&I, and if you're looking to implement changes, I think the biggest risks are probably around it's not just legal but it's the non-legal as well.

You mentioned that we write for Legal-Island, and I touched on some of this in one of the articles that we wrote recently, actually. So on the legal side, maybe you're looking at if you changed your policies. Depending on what way your policies are framed, maybe they're contractual, people might be like, "That's a breach of my contract. You need my consent and my agreement to do that".

But I don't think it's the legal things that you're going to be faced with, first and foremost. It's more of the practical stuff. So your internal grievances, your complaints, your culture, your morale, maybe absenteeism. All of these are things that are going to impact on your productivity, on your end line, on the business.

There are other side aspects. I mentioned absenteeism. A lot of the people that are going to be impacted by changes in the DE&I space are potentially coming from minorities and things like that, and may be more vulnerable to impact on mental health. And that's something that I think kind of tends to fall between the gaps a little bit.

Even if you're not looking at mental health for moral reasons, which I'm sure most people here today are, you need to be looking at that through the employer and their legal duties as well.

I mean, regulators here in Ireland and regulators around the world are focussing more on mental health. We don't live in a world where it's all about your slips, trips, and falls and your physical accidents anymore. There's a lot more understanding about the mental impact on people and work. So I think that's something that we need to be thinking about as well.

In terms of our regulatory obligations, obviously, mental health and well-being and providing a safe workplace, all of that is encompassed now. You're not just risk assessing, as I said, for your slips, trips, and falls. You need to be mindful of the mental impact in the workplace.

And on top of your regulatory obligations, I suppose, you'd potentially be looking at personal injury, depending on how significant or drastic the change was that was introduced.

So the risks are varied, and it really would depend on how you go about your changes and where you're coming from, whether you're trying to change policies, whether you're trying to change culture, whether you've got a practice in place of consultation. You'll probably need to think about a bit of temperature testing and reading the room as well.

Everybody here today, you're going to know your organisations better than I do. And everybody here today as well, I'm sure, has been involved in different change processes, and you'll know that communication and messaging is going to be key as well.

I suppose if you're looking forward and you're thinking about doing this and you're worried about the risks, a risk assessment doesn't just apply to your health and safety stuff.

I know a lot of clients that I work with, if they're looking at a big change, they like to do a risk analysis before they do that. They look for where the risks are, they look for where the benefits are, they look for where the strengths are. They'll look at the costs and then weigh it all up. That kind of helps you bring that case to your business and help you plan adequately going forward.

So if you're worried about the risks, start risk assessing and looking forward and doing it that way.

Julie: Aoife, thank you. You've just led me into that nicely. So, Mamobo, when you are working with different organisations and they're looking at DEI, usually, one of the things that we're always tasked with in organisations is return on investment. So do you find that people are looking for your assistance, and is it to help with DEI in relation to innovation? Is it in relation to growth, or is it in relation to productivity? Where is it that organisations see it fitting most?

Dr Ogoro: I was just nodding as Aoife was talking because it's just really feeding back to essentially all the work that we do in terms of working with organisations, and particularly because we . . . My background is in social and cultural psychology. I tend to focus on the area of intercultural competence, intercultural communication in a global business environment.

So it's important for organisations when they're starting to work with diversity, and specifically engaging with, like Aoife said, those who may come from minoritised or under-represented backgrounds, it's very important to really understand how it not only benefits the people, but understanding that, like I said, people are your biggest assets.

If they trust the organisation, if they feel more valued in the organisation, and if they ultimately feel like they can thrive within the organisation, that's where you can see better productivity from the people. That's where you can see higher retention rates and lower staff attrition within the organisation as well.

So the outcome of the work that we do and focussing on culture specifically, focussing on intercultural and intergroup engagement, how different communities, how different groups, and specifically those from minoritised groups engage within the workplace, that's how we can get that higher return on . . . I'm not going to say return on investment because sometimes people don't like that language.

But that's where we can see the higher productivity. That's when we can see higher levels of psychological safety within an organisation. And that's where we can see people feeling that they can stay. They're feeling like they can thrive and feeling like they can trust the organisation.

Although I can't share a lot of the details of our specific clients that we work with, there's some open knowledge that I have here from Keelings, an organisation in Ireland. They did an intervention, and especially when it comes to psychological safety and trust, the specific interventions that you can do within organisations to, let's say, nudge towards that feeling of psychological safety and trust within the organisations.

So Keelings specifically had a challenge when it came to flexibility within an organisation. People were telling them, and let's say specifically those who had carer's obligations, those who had parental obligations, that they need more flexibility.

So they had an intervention called the Flexi-Pool System where people could actually input times and input areas where they needed more flexibility within their work. And they actually tested them in terms of with the system and without the system.

They found that with the Flexi-Pool System, in terms of the intervention on flexibility within the work, again, the outcome is more flexibility, more safety, and more trust in the organisation. They found a 14% increase in employee engagement and also a 30% improvement in staff retention.

So it goes to show the importance of not only just, let's say, being regulatorily compliant or being compliant in terms of legal obligations, but bringing interventions that actually promote psychological safety, actually promote trust, promote engagement within the organisation, and will ultimately bring more productivity, will ultimately lower staff attrition, and will ultimately increase retention within the organisation.

Julie: Great. Thank you. You've talked a lot there about retention, so Preeti, I just want to bring you in to talk about the other side of that. So when you're working with candidates, again, what would be their views about DEI? Are they specifically attracted to organisations where DEI is important, or what would you find?

Preeti: Thank you, Julie. And thank you, Mamobo and Aoife, for sharing this interesting perspective. I'm going to answer this question in light with the current changes which are happening in terms of DEI. The political landscape is changing, and there are a lot of debates happening around DEI, and also there are a lot of debates happening around merit.

I'll also share a little bit of a global perspective here, because what I have realised working in various countries is that Europe is very different from the rest of the world, I would say, in terms of the social aspects are concerned, the political aspects are concerned.

But if we talk about economics, pure economics in business, then we are all connected, and we are heavily reliant. We are global. So whatever happens in one country always mostly has impacts on the other countries.

And we see these days also . . . I mean, in Europe, we saw that Accenture has dropped their diversity target, right? So this was one of the global impacts which has happened.

Also, the other important debate which is right now coming up is about the merit, that we should have a balance between DEI and the merit. And of course, there has to be a balance on this. However, from the perspective of people who are still looking for jobs and I would say that who are wanting to move or change their companies . . .

And I would like here to bring back what Dr Mamobo said, that DEI has an impact on engagement, right? DEI has an impact on a lot of other people's aspects as far as companies are concerned or a business is concerned. People are very well aware about that.

The clients which I work with . . . For example, I've been a career coach. People who are looking for shifting or who are in the job market right now, DEI still is an important aspect for them. It is. When it comes to creating a perception about a company or creating a work perception, how would I be treated in a company? DEI is still an important aspect for them. Yes, even in the current political landscape, it is still an important aspect.

This is what I can say after speaking to so many people who are in the job market right now looking for opportunities. I mean, international people, people from all walks of life.

Julie: Great. Thank you very much, Preeti.

Aoife, one of the things that you had mentioned was about gender pay gap reporting. You'd mentioned about other things like the pay transparency directive coming in as well. If organisations were to stop reporting on these as part of, say, where we all dial back and say, "No, we're going to keep our information internal. It's not going to be widely available", such as the gender pay cap reporting, what impact do you think that would have?

Aoife: I'd be quite surprised to see a mass refusal to report, to be honest, especially the way things are going as we're moving toward . . . As I mentioned earlier, pay transparency is coming in where we're going to have more obligations in terms of what we're reporting on, and then CSRD further down the line more again.

There are obviously legal consequences if you don't report. I'm not aware of any cases being taken in Ireland yet for a failure to report, but I believe if there was this mass refusal, that would probably change quite quickly.

And there are different options there for cases to go through the WRC, or the IHREC has options to bring cases for enforcement orders in the civil courts as well. So I think we could see a bit of a shift in the attitude towards that if it happened on a bigger scale.

Then some of the other stuff that I mentioned earlier as well, the consequence that you're going to be looking at, like your reputational damage. It's not legal but in this world that we live in today, social media, everybody sharing their views. I think the backlash could be quite significant, and it could be quite quick.

And leading back to what Preeti was talking about there about recruitment and retention and how these DE&I initiatives are still so important to employees, you're potentially going to be shooting yourself in the foot.

And it's not just employees either. It's your investors, it's your clients. Everybody's reading about this stuff.

We were talking earlier before this started about the news and you never know what you're going to see these days. But I was kind of pleased to see some commentary yesterday in the news I was reading that people are really starting to speak out about this and how confusing a time it is and how contradictory things are and what a hypocrite some people feel like when they're kind of saying A and doing B.

So I think there's a lot to be mindful of in terms of how that would reflect back on an organisation if they were thinking about not complying. It's something I'd be giving careful thought to. I wouldn't be doing that lightly.

Julie: And we may see changes as well now that we've got the portal for everyone to [inaudible 00:22:31].

Aoife: Yeah. They're going to make it a lot more user-friendly.

Julie: Great. So then let me see. Preeti, when Aoife was talking about the fact that we are going to have more reporting obligations, and in HR, again, we would tend to use those as benchmarking exercises, just almost as an exercise for ourselves to see how we're performing against other organisations. What type of effect do you think that would have if, say, for example, larger companies, maybe multinationals with their base in the U.S. and they're caught between this rock and hard place about, "Do we go ahead or do we not?"

Now, as Aoife said, very much it is still in law. It's still an obligation. But if we were to see it change, what do you think that would do for the HR profession in terms of the data that we would use?

Preeti: Julie, that's a really good question. And I can tell you from the HR perspective, a lot of times HR are being questioned about, "Okay, how much . . ." I mean, there is a perception that a lot of things we do in HR are not very scientific. However, what we do has a scientific or a psychological base in it. And Dr Mamobo was talking about it as well.

It is very, very important for HR professionals, and I've been one for the last 17 years, to have a data backup, and especially when we talk about areas like DEI, where the debate can go on any side. There can be discussions about anything, which we would not even imagine. It is very, very important to have the data on your side.

And if you represent right data when you're talking or when you're making any pitch to the management or any pitch to the candidate, that is something which really puts all the HR people at a place where you would be directly related to the business or to the work which we were doing it.

I mean, of course, this would be another big step to have more reporting on the side of data. But I think what Aoife was saying, it would be something very positive for the HR professionals all around the world. I think so, yeah.

Julie: Yeah. Great. Well, as you say, not even just . . .

Preeti: A little bit of hard work, but yeah.

Julie: Just a little bit of hard work. And then, Mamobo, one of the things that you talked about quite a bit was about psychologically safe spaces and about promoting diverse perspectives, really, in an organisation. What do you think all of this debate says about people bringing their authentic selves to work?

It's almost as if there was an emphasis about you should be able to be open at work. There wasn't as much of a line between personal and professional life. You could share insights about your personal life.

What do you think that will do or how could that impact . . . And again, it may not be as much in Ireland, but in the U.S., what would you generally say?

Dr Ogoro: I think when it comes to psychological safety within the workplace, a lot of people feel, and there's this argument, that you need to share all your life and things like that. I would argue that it's not about building a space where people need to be all themselves, everything within the workplace. It's about building a safe enough space where people can feel open, people can be transparent, and people can trust the organisation and the team that they're working in.

I don't want to argue that we need to build a safe, safe, safe . . . Yes, we need to build a safe space, but it's about building a safe enough space, because there will be mistakes that will happen, especially in the climate that we're living in. If you're living in the U.S. context, and perhaps you may have government contracts and things like that, there may be things that your organisation has to do to comply, let's say, within an environment like that.

So in building that safe enough space, what an organisation may need to do specifically so people can feel that they're authentic, even within a specific tension period that we're in right now, it's providing a level of transparency and openness with the people and having them understand the circumstances and the outcomes of specific actions that the organisation is taking.

There are different ways that we can build psychological safety on an organisational level, on a team level, and on an interpersonal level. I could talk for days on this, which I won't, but specifically on that organisational level, it's about being transparent and having open communication.

Specifically when you're starting it out, DEI is change management, and DEI is culture management. Understanding that at a fundamental level is understanding that we need to build a safe enough space for our people.

How do we build that safe enough space for our people? Starting it out is being transparent, being open about where you are as an organisation, and being open about the risks that could be involved in doing this work and the outcome that you want to take.

At the end of the day, when it comes to the work of DEI, the outcome is a fair, inclusive, open environment for everyone to thrive.

Everybody comes to the workplace at a different starting block, and what DEI wants to do is to ensure that that starting block is, as much as we can do, equal for everybody.

So when we want to create that psychological safety in an organisational environment, it's allowing people to understand and being transparent and open to the fact that, "This is where we're at in our journey as an organisation. These are the roadblocks, these are the risks because of the political and social environment that we're at, but this is where we want to go, and this is what we want to do".

And specifically, if you're working, let's say, in a Western organisation where hierarchy can be a bit flatter . . . It depends on the organisation, but have people contribute, have people say how they feel, be open about it, and make it more of a dialogue, a conversation to how you are going as it relates to DEI.

Once people start that and they feel that they can engage, that they can share their grievances, that they can share their opinions openly, let's say, that's where we can start to cultivate that space of authenticity, that space of trust, that space of safety and belonging within the organisation.

So there's loads that you can do there, but I will stop now just so we won't run out of time.

Julie: That's great. Thank you. Well, Preeti, if you want to pick up, really, where Mamobo left us off. So if you're working in an organisation, how do you help HR leaders, or how in your coaching have you helped them identify ways of keeping inclusion at the centre, really, of their practice or at their organisation?

Preeti: Julie, I'll give this answer from two perspectives. One is the perspective of working within the organisation as HR, and the other perspective is as a candidate who's applying for a company, let's say XYZ company who has a perception in the market as far as DEI things are concerned.

And also, there is a point where these two link, because how you are as a company definitely impacts what you do in terms of these aspects within the company, and in fact, the candidate's perception of the company.

Now, one big question, which we, as HR, have been asked always in the boardroom . . . and I'm sure the other HR people who are listening to this would agree with me. Whatever we bring forward, we are always asked about, "Is it going to impact our business in a positive way? Do you think that this would impact our business in a positive way?"

Now, good part is that there have been a lot of research done on this side, as far as DEI is concerned, that yes, DEI positively impacts the business. DEI positively impacts the innovation within the company.

For example, banks who are on the way of innovation, they actually . . . However the world is going in a different way, they are actually even bringing more and more diversity within the businesses to impact innovation within their company.

Now, this is something which these researchers have been on the side of DEI. So it actually really helps. What is most important as far as building inclusion is concerned? Of course, it's very important to understand the difference between diversity and inclusion.

Diversity is more like, as Aoife was talking about, we have certain numbers, and we have a legal landscape, and we have to comply with that. This is diversity, right? Inclusion is where everybody feels included with the company. Everybody feels a sense of belonging to a company.

For HR, it is very important to understand our people. And here, I will bring some aspects about what Dr Mamobo was talking about, psychological safety.

For HR, it is very important to have it on your hands, on your fingertips, what kind of people you have and what kind of perspectives or what kind of backgrounds they bring in. It's very important to understand that. And how can you build a place where they feel more inclusion?

I'll give you a very interesting example. So we were doing a study in our company, and this is a company in India. Now, this might be slightly not related, but it's still an interesting example for all of us.

So we were actually talking about maternity, how we can support the women who are having kids or who are taking care of their children. And this is actually an important debate everywhere, not just in one country. It's everywhere.

You will be surprised . . . What we had done was we had given a lot of support factors from the HR policy side to the working women. They could work from home, they could take leaves, they could take breaks.

Now, what was happening was because of all these aspects, there were a lot of people . . . there were some line managers who were a little apprehensive about taking women in their teams.

Because of these aspects, because of these policy aspects, they were like, "Okay, I have a tough job. I need somebody who is there 24/7 with me." These were some examples which you are hearing.

Now, this is very interesting. Of course, it's very important to balance that out so that, of course, on one side, you are promoting inclusion, but at the same time, it is very important to see that the other person or the other party is not feeling left out. It's a very delicate balance which you have to build as an HR.

And of course, it's very important to have data backup on your side as well. And that is why I was talking a lot about, when Aoife was talking about reporting, it is also very important to have that data backup so that you can convince these managers or convince the business people that, "Look, this is what the story tells. The story is telling us something differently".

I'm sure most of the HR people have come across this situation somewhat the other way.

So I think it's a very delicate balance, and HR has to play a very, very delicate role here, of course, of being on the side of all the people, and also at the same time promoting inclusion within the company.

Now, this was from the HR side, but from the candidate side, I can definitely tell you that candidates still value diversity a lot whenever they are looking at an employer. It is about, "How will I be treated in a company when I join there?"

And this could be anybody, whether we talk about majority, whether we talk about minority, or anybody. It is still very much in the minds of the people. In fact, if I talk about the current generation, the coming generation, it is definitely an important factor in their minds.

Julie: Thank you. So I think you've mentioned about the delegate balancing act. Again, that psychological safety comes into it. And yes, it's about almost overcoming those barriers that perhaps people would . . . "I don't want a woman in the team because she may have childcare." And again, that's why we do have the legislation to back that up.

Again, just have experience of people and the diverse perspectives that they bring and all those experiences and skills that they have and how that should really create more of a . . . I don't want to say a level playing field, but I think Mamobo said about equitable starting blocks so that everybody is at the same point, really, and has the same advantages. Thank you.

Folks, we're nearly out of time, so I'm just going to finish off and ask you if you could each offer one way that HR professionals can help really defend DEI in either the face of budget constraints or perhaps, just as Preeti has mentioned, about scepticism, where it's maybe looked upon as a nice-to-have rather than essential. So, Aoife, I'm going to come to you first.

Aoife: Look, if you're meeting resistance and you're trying to put a business case together, there are the legal risks that we've mentioned that you can point to. There are the non-legal consequences.

But even taking a pragmatic view, I think Preeti mentioned earlier the global nature of the world that we're all working in today. We're dealing with clients, customers, colleagues from a more diverse range of backgrounds with different views, different experiences, different values. How does your business reach and communicate with them successfully if you don't have that diversity and that diversity of thought leading the way?

So, I would be pointing to that as well. I think Preeti mentioned as well that there are obviously people out there listening today who are in a position where they might be kind of under pressure to change things or roll things out. And one thing I would say is try and maybe have a reframe or a reset and turn a negative into a positive.

All employment policies should be treated as living documents. We can become complacent if something is sitting there and it's working well. But if you've had your DE&I policies in place for a long time, maybe they are in need of a refresh.

And if that has to be by way of a rebranding or rebadging, so long as you're doing that in such a way that you're addressing the current needs for the business, you can kind of take what is being perceived at the moment as a negative and try and turn it into your own positive.

I think there are a few different aspects that you can put your little business case together to bring it forward and show the positive that can come out of this.

Julie: Thank you. And Preeti, do you have anything to add to that, as well, just about facing scepticism in relation to DEI or about convincing people or helping HR defend it?

Preeti: Yes. And again, I'm going to talk about this aspect is . . . Of course, on the legal side, it's very important to be fully compliant. It is very important because that's what the HR profession is about. But at the same time, on the business side, it is very important.

I also think that, for HR people, if you have a business case for . . . And a business case only comes if you have good data to support your argument or to influence the other person, right? So if you have that data, use that data to build your business case or to influence people around you.

That would go a long way because in the boardrooms, these are the things which are being discussed. So if you have the data, the business case, that would really help.

Again, I'm going to the basics. The business case, you can build it if you have all your basics right in the place. And that is what Aoife was also talking about. If you have your basics right, you will be able to influence in a positive direction.

Julie: Thanks very much, Preeti. And then Mamobo.

Dr Ogoro: So this is a phenomenal question. I think Preeti and Aoife have really explained it to what it needs to be. But just in terms of what I can add, like Preeti said, there are two cases. So I would really be cognisant of, first of all, understanding the audience of who you're talking to.

Let's say it's a senior leader, or it's a colleague or things like that. Would they be more interested in the business case or the moral case to DEI?

So if they're, let's say, focussed on return on investment, if they're focussed on revenue on the organisation, I would focus on that business case. I would more frame it, let's say, as "What is the cost of not doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work?"

When it comes to staff retention, when it comes to attrition rates within the organisation, when it comes to morale, and when it comes to the culture, there is a quantitative number in terms of what it wants to actually on recruit on board, all those individuals. And most organisations have those numbers.

If DEI measures and DEI, let's say, policy or interventions are not in place, it's going to cost an organisation much more to recruit more people, to engage more people, to onboard and retain the staff that they have. Without a good DEI, you're not going to have great staff retention at the end of the day.

And then the moral case to DEI is understanding that when people feel that they're valued, when people feel that they're heard, when people feel that they're seen, and they can trust the organisation, it's just better for everybody.

And the reason why we focus on specifically on under-represented or marginalised communities is because when the outcomes are more equitable for these communities, it's better for everybody else.

I'll give you an example. I always use the example of the reason why we text. So when phones were created, let's say, in the '80s and we started to use phones, the reason why texting was created was because those who were deaf didn't have a way to communicate. So we created texting so those who were deaf could communicate. And now all of us text.

When we create measures and outcomes that are more equitable for those who, let's say, come from traditionally or historically marginalised or underrepresented, it works better for everybody else.

And that is, at the end of the day, the core of what diversity, equity, and inclusion work wants to do. It wants to have equal outcomes for everybody because we have different starting blocks.

Again, I'm going on a spiel here, but in terms of the language, I feel like for those who may need to, as I like to say, in "DEI in stealth mode" change their language . . . When it comes to going DEI in stealth mode, I would focus on that language of the fairness, equal outcome.

And some words that we're using now, especially in the DEI world as practitioners, is called targeted universalism. What is the universal outcome that we need for individuals based on what the starting block is that they have? This cultivates that space of belonging for all and makes sure that everyone has that measurable outcome as well.

So again, I would say focus on who you're talking to, if it's the business case or the moral case.

And just a quick note before I go. A great book that I've been reading from a DEI expert and practitioner is called "DEI Deconstructed" by Lily Zheng. And they go through really measurable ways, especially if you're in that starting block, on how you can really start to embed DEI on a more targeted universalism outcome.

Julie: That's great. Thank you. And so again, everybody, I hope you got that on your reading list as well, because that sounds like very practical guidance as well.

Thank you all very much for your very encouraging views, very positive views, passionate, and, again, for bringing such practical guidance to people as well and such great suggestions. It's been a fantastic discussion.

We don't really have much time for questions, but I will say to everybody that you will get a copy of the recording. So if you want to go back through anything.

Again, we've got our experts here as well. Gosia, if you don't mind bringing up the slide for us, please. Please reach out and connect to, again, all of us at LinkedIn and very much our experts as well.

I just want to take a moment to say to you as well about Legal-Island. So we have our own types of training. We've got eLearning training on DEI. Obviously, Dr Mamobo Ogoro has other training that is more specialist.

We also have a course in DEI, which is CPD-qualified or a certified course. It runs for eight weeks, and it's a two-hour class. Several times that it's been run, and it's been very successful, very positive feedback. And if you're interested in that, you can check that out on our website as well.

So I think that you've got lots of learning from that. I know that I certainly have.

There's just a copy of the Diversity & Inclusion eLearning course from us as well.

Just want to thank everybody for joining us today. And thanks as well to Gosia for her invaluable tech support and for keeping us right with the polls and everything as well.

I hope this conversation has given you some valuable insights and things to take back to your organisations as well.

Again, I look forward to speaking to you all next time and for our next webinar. And thanks very much again to our guests.

Aoife: Thanks, Julie.

Julie: Thank you.

Dr Ogoro: Thank you.
 

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